A Story of Redemption


I’ve usually been hesitant to post ministry videos, mainly because I’ve found it hard to find anything I was comfortable promoting.

In the past I’ve included some David Pawson sermons, and more recently some series by David Servant. Both are teachers I’ve trusted, having found that for the most part their teaching is soundly Bible based.

I post the following after seeing several Todd White videos.
I have seen he’s a man who attracts some opposition and criticism. He looks different and his style is different, but for the most part I’ve personally found no problem with him.

A few days ago I read an article* opposing both him and what he does. It was written by a woman who encountered him at her local gym and took the opportunity to confront him and accuse him of being a false teacher.

I found her public attack was graceless and full of false accusation, including claims that he doesn’t preach from scripture and that he preaches a repentance-less gospel.
After seeing many of his preaching and ministry videos I categorically state that his talks are often full of scripture, and his public street ministry is probably closer to the biblical example in Acts than most street ministry I’ve witnessed before. He also doesn’t dilute the need for repentance, as can be seen in this video with regard to couples living together before marriage.

The accuser asked him if he has ever had anyone take him verse by verse through the scriptures. His reply to her was to point out that he has the scriptures and can read them himself. She also claimed she had never seen him carrying a Bible. If she meant a big black leather bound book her observation was probably valid –  he tends to refer to scripture via a tablet instead of a physical book, and he frequently quotes scripture from memory rather than reading it from a page.

It didn’t surprise me to see that the woman confronting him was a disciple of John MacArthur, a Calvinist hero and spiritual gifts denying celebrity preacher.

My own background has been in Pentecostal churches, but I have a lot of reservations regarding a lot of ministry claimed to be in the name of Jesus, particularly anything that includes “signs and wonders” of a type NOT seen in scripture. (Gold dust, gem stone appearances, angel feathers…)

Todd White doesn’t seem to be a promoter of that kind of false miracle, although he has an occasional  connection to some who do ; instead he takes the gospel and healing to the streets, restaurants, shopping malls, gymnasiums – everywhere that he goes, and he gets results with healings that lead to multiple people turning to Jesus. That approach is far more in line with scripture than the modern attempts to entertain people into the Kingdom.

The following video gives a short example of what he does.

For anyone who might still have objections for whatever reason, I refer them to Jesus and Paul:

“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9) NIV

And

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

Personally I believe he’s preaching from true motives, not false. As for whether the gospel he preaches is adequate: does anyone doing and preaching less than him have any right to criticise someone who is at least doing as much as he is?

Maybe, before offering judgement, people need to ask themselves whether “my” no gospel is preferable to “his” partial gospel.

Todd White is accountable for what he does and we are no less accountable to God for what WE do. If we all play our own part we’ll be working together in fruitful service to God, complementing each other’s contribution to the work of His Kingdom.

the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labour. For we are co-workers in God’s service. ! Cor 3) NIV

 

POST SCRIPT added 12 Feb 2020 :

The comments below show a lot of concern about Todd White’s ministry.

I can only advise the same as I did at the end of my article “Is David Pawson a False Teacher?“:

Is David Pawson (Todd White, or anyone else) a false teacher?

Search the scriptures for yourself and find out.

Don’t be swayed by view points or claims that others make – whether a good report or a condemnation – but check everything out for yourself.

If you are not willing to do that – no matter who the teacher in question may be, then you make yourself very susceptible to being deceived.

 

_______________________________________

*  I originally thought of linking to the article but chose not to – deciding I didn’t want to give its spurious claims any hint of value.

52 thoughts on “A Story of Redemption

  1. Personally, I would be extremely cautious with regard to this man, his activities and those he has been, or still is, associated with. I cannot place him at the same level of mostly ‘sound biblical teaching’ as Pawson or Servant.

    I’m not aware of the article about the encounter with the woman that you refer too, I am aware of others who counsel/advise against the teachings of this man because of the mixture of false with truth, some of which comes from others who are well known for their being misled.

    I would suggest all search further for themselves.

  2. Hi Roger,
    I’ve seen a lot of Todd White recently and have so far, personally, come across very little to concern me with his street ministry.

    He is not a bible teacher. He is an evangelist who actually goes into the community and tells people about Jesus, and prays for the sick and sees them getting healed. He also preaches at large events to encourage others to take the gospel to their communities, I haven’t seen much of that, because I don’t think that’s his strength, even though he clearly entertains and encourages his audience. Like all preachers, what he says can be a mixture, so we need to test everything, but not necessarily reject everything just because something isn’t quite right on a few things,

    As for his links to some questionable people/groups, I have to take note that David Pawson has also been associated with IHOP, who are/were at the centre of so much regarding false prophets, (preaching there many times while he was still teaching). That association has never affected my respect for Pawson and his teaching.

    Apart from legitimate concerns about the obvious false signs and wonders of gold dust, gem stone appearances etc. I see no reason to fear the kind of signs that scripture tells us should be following the believer when the gospel is being preached.

    I have had to consider the alternative to that preaching and healing approach – and that is what so much of the church has settled for over many generations and centuries, a dead, lifeless theology that leaves everyone waiting for heaven instead of living for Christ here and now.

    As I concluded in my post, how can I criticise what he’s doing unless I’m doing more to share the gospel than he is.

  3. In addition to my reply above, I’d like to point out that White can minister as he does because he has a significant personal testimony of Jesus working in His life to bring him into relationship with Him.

    I am looking forward to having a similarly significant testimony of healing, through which others can be led into the Kingdom.
    However, even before that testimony becomes a reality, I’ll continue to trust in Jesus and challenge myself to make HIs name known among those who don’t yet believe.
    I can no longer afford NOT to put Him first in my life.

  4. Hi Tim,
    I appreciate what you are going through and where your present focus is, and must be – I don’t want to distract you from that.

    You and I both know that there are false gospels, false jesus, pseudo holy spirit, false apostles and prophets, false signs and wonders, false tongues, false healings, false miracles, false revivals. The adversary of Almighty God is the source of these counterfeits which are only there because of the true ones.
    You know I am not a cessationist but have the desire to follow only truth as taught in Scripture by Lord Jesus, directly, and through His Apostles – and to listen carefully to their warnings.

    Yes Pawson taught at IHOP meetings, as well as elsewhere – where there were unbelievers and those who were misled and deceived. The difference is that Pawson didn’t repeat IHOP (and others) false teachings – he corrected them in a loving way with truth.

    My understanding is that Todd White does repeat the false teachings of others, naming a couple as his mentors, supporting/condoning their teachings rather than correcting.

    Again, I suggest that all search further on this for themselves.

    In His love, Roger

  5. Hi Roger,
    Todd White is a believer doing what he can to be obedient to the Lord’s command to take the gospel to the world in both word and deed.

    I have no problem with what he’s doing in that regard and have found that side of his ministry to be a personal challenge. He is doing what the church SHOULD be doing – but most of the church (most believers) are not obeying the Lord in His command to take the gospel to the world.
    I know I have been disobedient in that regard, and have been taking some steps to put that right. Sadly it took a cancer diagnosis to get me to that place. However I’m making that diagnosis into an opportunity to be more open about my faith, while believing God for a complete healing.
    I look forward to faithfully using my testimony of healing as a means of sharing the gospel with as many people as possible, just as Todd White uses his testimony to open doors for his message.

    Facing this current challenge has opened my eyes, not only to my own compromised life, but also to the deadness within the church. False teachings and prophecy are a danger to the church, but no more than stagnation and inactivity. I do not want to be that servant who buries his master’s resources out of fear.

    As for all of those false things – my criteria for judgement is their nature. Are they BIBLICAL signs. Healings – yes. Tongues – yes. Are they fruitful and do good? Do they lead people to Jesus?

    I have found false signs and wonders are obviously false: non-biblical, frivolous, and pointless. The things that come immediately to my mind are gold dust and gem stone manifestations. Not surprisingly they point to materialism.

    I’ve heard little of Todd White’s preaching from the “pulpit”, but what I’ve heard has been of mixed value: his testimony (good) saying we should trust only in God’s word (good) but he also says things that are clearly what he’s picked up somewhere other than the word of God (not good). But that’s not so different to most teachings (both charismatic and otherwise), a lot of which are based on theological traditions passed on through churches.

    So whether we are observing charismatics or non-charismatics, whatever the source of teaching, we need to search the scriptures for ourselves and determine what we should heed and what we should reject. The danger is rejecting a lot of good because we’ve heard someone say some wrong things and therefore reject everything they say or do.

    In my current situation I could easily decide that the church is made up of two extremes that are equally false – that there’s no good at all.
    At the extremes there are the lively charismaniacs with their gold dust and gemstones and disregard of biblical foundations – or there are the dead lifeless others who don’t display any evidence of taking the gospel to the world, denying the validity of healing – or at least arguing that it’s rare and only “if God wills”.
    There seems to be little appetite for having a sound biblical foundation upon which we can know God’s will and establish our lives upon that.

    I posted the video of White’s ministry because he is actually DOING what the Lord expects of the church.
    When I’m doing at least as much as he’s doing to share the gospel wherever I go, then I might feel more qualified to say whether he should be doing things differently.

    As for his on-stage appearances and preaching, I think the problem is more with the church as whole than with White as an individual preacher. Preaching is more an entertainment than an equipping of the saints. As long as someone has personality and can entertain, they gain access to a pulpit.
    I saw that as a problem way back in the 80s as I went from this conference to that, getting my itching ears scratched, instead of actually LIVING what I claimed to believe and what the preaching was supposed to be equipping me for.

    I’ve barely touched the surface of what I want to share, but I hope to go into more depth in a blog post soon instead of the comments section.

  6. You know, also, that I’m not a cessationist. I, however, do think we need to think of the times or situation. For instance, there is a place that says “noone” can claim the name of the messiah without truly believing. There is a tipping point, where speaking the name Jesus becomes much easier, even beneficial (even for those who don’t believe) in the world — because it fits with the powerful of mankind. [I am not making a statement about the man you have named, but I appreciate Rogers observation.]

  7. I’ve heard little of Todd White’s preaching from the “pulpit”, but what I’ve heard has been of mixed value: his testimony (good) saying we should trust only in God’s word (good) but he also says things that are clearly what he’s picked up somewhere other than the word of God (not good).

    Having now listened to a little more of his preaching “from the pulpit” I have to say that I’ve heard very little so far that I’d put into that last category of “not so good”. I find myself agreeing with most of what I’ve heard from him.

  8. Tim,
    On the 29th January you posted an article to do with NAR, in it you quoted from three sources (one of whom is “churchwatchcentral”) critiquing members of NAR and Hillsong with their involvement in politics.

    Todd White is influenced by, and aligns with, members of NAR. Here is another article referring to NAR members: https://churchwatchcentral.com/2017/12/12/how-are-we-to-regard-michael-brown-todd-white-and-other-nar-leaders/

    Again, I suggest that all search further on this for themselves.

    In His love, Roger

  9. Hi Roger,

    I looked at that link and found that a lot of the things they are pointing to as falsehoods, in the “transcript snippets” have also been preached by David Pawson.
    Namely that Jesus didn’t minister under His own authority as God, but as a man through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.
    That IS the case, and Jesus Himself said: “The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work”.

    And Hebrews 2 tells us “Since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity” and that “He had to be made like them, FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY” (my emphasis in upper case).

    And there’s the very clear fact that His ministry didn’t start until the Holy Spirit came to Him at His baptism.

    I have to say that, after hearing and seeing quite a lot of Todd White recently, and after reading that article, that Todd White has demonstrated much more Christ-likeness than the writer of that article, with its opening paragraph claiming certain people, including White “may need to be seriously considered worse than demons”.

    After reading through that article a couple of times I’d find it hard to believe that the writer of it accepts the validity of Spiritual gifts or the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of believers and the church and THAT is more of a problem than anything they’ve tried to expose regarding Todd White.

    Instead of making me rethink the posting of the Todd White video, reading that article has given me second thoughts about keeping that article I posted with links to the churchwatchcentral site. That article seems to be much more deceptive and dangerous than anything I’ve hear White teaching.

    From a personal viewpoint, I’d rather base my impression of a man’s message on what I’ve heard the man himself say than trust the word of a group who start an article of condemnation by naming that man within a group of men they consider as “worse than demons”.

  10. On the 29th January you posted an article to do with NAR, in it you quoted from three sources (one of whom is “churchwatchcentral”

    Hi Roger,
    Thank you for bringing to my attention the article in the link you provided in your comment.
    As a result I have deleted that NAR critique article I’d previously posted.

    Primarily because it relied so much on information from that churchwatchcentral group who I see now are a very deceptive, un-Christlike group devoted more to spreading discord than in promoting or defending the truth of the gospel.

    Opposition to NAR ambitions doesn’t need to rely on the kind of lies, exaggeration and biblical ignorance contained in their article: “How are we to regard Michael Brown, Todd White and other NAR leaders?”

  11. I looked at that link and found that a lot of the things they are pointing to as falsehoods, in the “transcript snippets” have also been preached by David Pawson.
    Namely that Jesus didn’t minister under His own authority as God, but as a man through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

    From David Pawson about Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit: “Jesus did not preach a single sermon, or perform a single miracle before this moment. Why not? Because, being a real human being as well as the Son of God, he could not do it without the Spirit’s power”

    And quoting DL Moody, Pawson continues: “If the Holy Spirit, who came down on Jesus and enabled Him to do what He did, is available to a man today, what could that man not do with that same Spirit?”

    And continuing, Pawson says: “If the power of the same Holy Spirit who came down on Jesus at the Jordan river is available to us, the truth of what Jesus later said can be seen clearly: ‘anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing’ [I wonder if any Christian has ever had faith to believe that Jesus meant what He said]” David Pawson, Come With Me Through Mark, Terra Nova Publications 2009.

  12. Hi Tim,
    I could share more links concerning Todd White – under search arguments: ‘Todd White grave soaking’, ‘Todd White NAR’, ‘Todd White ‘New Breed’, and ‘Todd White’s enthusiasm – a little truth and a lot of error’.

    ‘New Breed’ is a latter rain term, also used by NAR, when referring to men who are ‘little gods’.

    However, given your above responses, I doubt that sharing will help you understand the concern I have over this man and the ongoing concern I have for you.

    Once again, I suggest that all search further on this for themselves, there is so much more going back over a number of years.

    In His love, Roger

  13. Transcript of relevant section:

    Now this is a terribly important point. Up to the age of 30 He didn’t preach one sermon or do a miracle.

    Until He was 30 He could make chairs and tables but He couldn’t still the storm.

    He couldn’t do that until the Holy Spirit joined Him, and of course, He attributed His miracles not to His own power as the Son of God, but to the power of the Spirit.

    ” If I by the power of the Spirit of God cast out demons, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you”
    It was not until He received the Holy Spirit’s power.

    He was as Peter later described Him, ‘Jesus of Nazareth who was then anointed with power and went about doing good’.

    I’m sure you’ve already realised the significance of this for us.
    As DL Moody said, ‘If man can have the same Holy Spirit as Jesus had, what could that man not do?’

    It was Jesus Himself who said, ‘The works I do you will do also, and greater works.’

  14. I did a search of “Todd White grave soaking and came up with nothing relevant. But interestingly the first article that came up contained the following observation:

    “I don’t know who Todd White is and after reading the above “article”, I still don’t.
    I agree that some of the things that the article ascribes to Todd White aren’t part of Christianity and should be shunned.
    But what I don’t see is clear-cut evidence here against the man. I think that if we’re to consider (much less label) someone
    as a False Teacher, that there should be specific and well-documented evidences that can be pointed out and discussed. Show
    a video of his own making where he does these things and actually teaches a False Gospel… not somebody else’s expose’ on the
    man. That’s just Gossip… Does that make sense?”

    I’d say a lot of what is being said is far worse than gossip, and I’m beginning to see that a lot of the accusers are far more of a spiritual problem than those they are accusing. I’d seriously question the validity of most of these way out accusations.

    While I have no time for Bill Johnson and his gold dust, gem stones and angel feathers (he denies the practice of “grave soaking/sucking by his church), I equally have no time for false accusations, and would rather seek the truth myself than rely on false reports from either extreme of the deception spectrum.

    Rather than expressing concern about Todd White based on ill-founded accusations made by others, find out for yourself what he does and preaches. That is the approach I’ve taken and I’ve seen very little so far to cause great concern. Yes there are some problems, but he is a man, and not a well educated one at that, having spent 22 years as an illiterate drug addict prior to meeting Jesus. And as a man he’s prone to get some things wrong.

  15. I’m again not commenting on the man (new to me and in whom I have no interest) who has been brought up. But I have listened to the specific recording of Pawson just now and possibly before. Whenever I have heard it, now and maybe before, I had already (previously) definitely called Jesus my elder brother.

  16. Hi Tim,
    You mention your search on grave soaking, but only quote one comment that supports your view..? ..and I see you have now deleted the whole of your 29th January NAR blog rather than just the ‘churchwatchcentral’ link, even though your blog contained other links.

    I agree with Pawson’s teaching that you share above – White adds error to that truth.

    I understand, and agree, that we should find out for ourselves what Todd White does and preaches – which is why I repeated that all should search further for themselves.

    One other source of information, which I posted in my last comment, was: ‘Todd White’s enthusiasm – a little truth and a lot of error’. This 2 page article, which contains research into Whites ‘doings and preachings’ and was posted in 2016 and may be found here: http://www.letusreason.org/Popteach85.htm and http://www.letusreason.org/Popteach86.htm

    My concern with Todd White and his associates isn’t as recent as your posting of his ministry video 2 days ago. Questions have been asked about this man, his activities, his associates, his alignment with NAR and his repeating of false teachings and beliefs for some years now.

    Yes he includes truth, as they all do – it is the twisting of truth, misinterpretation of scripture and taking scripture verse meanings ‘out of context’ that deceives and misleads many.

    Please Tim – I ask that you (and all others) relook at the beliefs and teachings of this man and his associates.

    In the love of Christ Jesus our risen Lord and Messiah,
    Roger

  17. Roger,
    I will assess Todd White’s ministry according to what I see and hear.

    I read the article you link above yesterday after doing more of my own research, and found as much error in their claims and their interpretations of scripture as they say is in White’s ministry, such as suggesting that the apostles were the only ones who were given healing gifts.

    Todd White apparently teaches that we all have apostolic power to heal anyone we pray for or command healing. The apostles lived out the life of Christ in them and did separate things that no Christian can do, that is why they were called “Apostles.”

    And the writer of that article infers that Mark 16 also only applied to apostles.

    Mk.16 is used by many to justify how we can all go miracles like the apostles. If we look at the book of Acts who was it that took up a serpent? Paul an apostle. Who laid hands on the sick and they recovered? The apostles. This was never a normal occurrence for everyone who was a Christian.

    But what does Mark 16 say? “And these signs will accompany THOSE WHO BELIEVE”. It does not say the signs will follow the apostles.

    And the writers assertion that the book of Acts is called “The Acts of The Apostles and not the Acts of The Church” is just beyond belief. I suspect the actual title given to the book was not Luke’s own title for his writings – and in reality the whole book, apart from the first few chapters, is mostly about the Acts of PAUL.

    I think it was David Pawson who said the book should be more correctly called Acts of the Holy Spirit.

    The writer of that article is so keen to point out problems with White and his ministry, and yet that writer’s assertions are themselves FULL of error and false doctrine.
    While some are keen to serve the Lord in taking the gospel to the world – despite their own short comings * To what extent has the writer of that article shared the gospel? Or is their “ministry” confined to digging into and undermining what others are doing to justify their own lack of gospel.

    I don’t want to spend my life trying to prove others wrong, and trying to deny the power of the gospel, by turning it into a relic of theological history.
    The writer claims that White has a false gospel – and yet I see and hear more of the BIBLICAL gospel from him than I do from the faithless, lifeless content of that article. White preaches JESUS. What does that article writer preach?

    White has been influenced to some extent by those he associates with, but the writer of the article is no less influenced by those HE associates with, hence his own unbiblical views. The only way to avoid such contamination is to avoid other people, and that in itself is unbiblical.

    There is probably so much more I could say here – but what would be the point? To those who dismiss the ministry of everyday believers, empowered by the Holy Spirit, as the article writer clearly does, ANY association with charismatics and Pentecostals would be seen as evil and become a target to expose.

    _______________________________

    * ( I refer you to the quote I gave from Philippians 1 in my original post: “The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely…The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice”. And I do NOT consider that White is not sincere in his motives – but is genuinely concerned for people and sharing the gospel with them.)

  18. You mention your search on grave soaking, but only quote one comment that supports your view..?

    It was a very pertinent comment that seemed to put an end to the topic: a comment saying where’s the evidence?

  19. The question that I, and others, have is which gospel is Todd White sharing? Does he truly believe that Jesus was only a man until His baptism when He became Spirit empowered – or does White believe that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man whilst on Earth.?

    The evidence from his own videos, seems to suggest that he believes in kenosis – Jesus was only a man until the Holy Spirit empowered Him – at which point He was able to perform miracles but remained a man. This belief allows men today to accept (and teach) they are as Jesus was – a Spirit empowered man, and concludes therefore those men are Christlike in every way becoming ‘little gods’. This ‘package’ is a false gospel and not the truth as written in Biblical Scripture.

    If this kenotic christ is the one that Todd White believes in and preaches – then this is NOT the Lord Jesus Christ of Scripture whom I worship.

    What we don’t know is whether Todd White believes this from his own reading of Scripture or from following the teachings of Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson, Benny Hinn and other sources.

    Neither do I want to spend my life proving others wrong – I desire to learn and share the truth from Scripture. I am also aware of warnings in Scripture that we are to beware those who teach falsely, and we are to warn others about those false ones and their teaching mixture of truth and false.

    This link to a forum, page 3, a member (Nathan) shares more on Todd White, his associates and his alignment – together with examples of his error https://divinecouncil.org/forum/threads/todd-white-dan-mohler.497/page-3

    If you choose to read the whole thread you will see there are those who believe Todd White is correct, those who believe he is in error (with examples/evidence.?) and others who were not aware of other well known names who also teach error and are aligned with White and with NAR.

    In His love,
    Roger

  20. Hi Tim,
    I’m not going to post any more on this.. obviously we don’t agree on this man.

    If all you have shared had convinced me I am wrong, I would apologise here – I think you know that of me..?

    You and I, and any others reading, need to search for ourselves with prayer.

    In the love of Christ Jesus our risen Lord,
    Roger

  21. Roger,
    I have heard and seen Todd White and I have no issue with what I have personally seen and heard of him preaching Jesus in word and deed.
    I have no need to change that opinion based on the judgements of others who instead of preaching the gospel, have made it their mission to tear down those who are.
    They do this by creating theological labels and concepts and projecting them onto those they choose to attack, often targeting individual phrases from a preached message to “prove” their accusations of heresy.

    I have also noted that many of these people seem to reject the validity of Spiritual gifts – such as the Let US Reason article that limited healings to the apostles.

    I repeat what I said in my original article:

    Maybe, before offering judgement, people need to ask themselves whether “my” no gospel is preferable to “his” partial gospel.

    I stand by that statement and add, on the day that I’m doing at least as much as he is in taking the gospel out into the world, THEN I’ll consider I might have some right to criticise his message and methods.

    As far as I see. White believes the same as David Pawson regarding Jesus ministering as a man through the power and authority of the Holy Spirit, and believers today indwelt by the same Holy Spirit ought to be doing the same works as Jesus as well as greater works. AS JESUS SAID.

    Those trying to discredit White project labels such as “Kenotic” onto him because it seems they do not believe in the ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit within the church through all who believe and therefore have to make Jesus’s preaching and healing ministry out to be something totally unique that could only be done under His own divine power and authority. That itself is false teaching that cripples the intended ministry of the church.

    You question the Jesus that White is preaching.
    I’d like to know which Jesus and what gospel are the accusers promoting if they deny the ongoing power of the Spirit and Jesus’ promises related to the Holy Spirit’s ministry within believers.

  22. I haven’t read your whole last post, Tim, but I recommend you read at the last link provided [as well as link to provided video(s)]. While it can be true that one person/organization criticizing disagrees with you in a way that really bothers you (and could be a serious shortcoming), nevertheless they can be warning you of something important. Unless the last link is proffering ”deep-fakes” and fake quotes and so on, I’d say you need to look.

  23. Hi Marleen, I’ve read the links.
    However, instead of making a biased judgement based on other people’s claims, I had the benefit of seeing White’s ministry first.

    The objections to him in those links have mostly seemed to come from people who deny the ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit in believers today, who have a lot of time to find fault with what others are doing instead of obeying Jesus’ instructions to take the gospel, with signs following, to the world.

    A few weeks ago I probably would have been in complete agreement with Roger’s concerns, however, after 9 weeks spent mostly seeking God, my perspective has changed.

    Please read my original article posted with the video.
    Until I’m doing at least as much as he is in taking the gospel to those around me – what right do I have to criticise him for doing what I’m not doing?

  24. Hi, Tim. I’ve read all that you’ve said; had read all you said other than something like the last third of your last post before I posted my last post. There’s a lot to wade through at the last link. And a lot of it might seem impertinent. And, yeah, like I already alluded to, I disagree if someone is really mostly against healing (however bizarre it sounds for them to say such things). What is relevant is not just if it seems like people are criticizing. Are people to not say? Do you still think there is such thing as a false gospel (or any number of false gospels)? Do you think there is “such thing” as lying signs? Do you think being “anointed” by Benny Hinn is a good thing? Do you think Mary was pregnant with Jesus until she was thirty? Have you been in a service with a woman making noises like she’s giving birth (when she’s not but has been told to give birth to spiritual ideas)? I was in a service with a woman like this (and didn’t know this was taught); I genuinely asked her if she was okay. It wasn’t clear she was sounding like she was giving birth, she just sounded in pain… she wasn’t in pain either. I mean, there are plenty of ways to be not completely right.

  25. I’ve already mentioned examples of lying signs – those that have no biblical precedent, for example gold dust and gemstone appearances.
    A false gospel would be something that makes Jesus irrelevant.
    To dismiss some one who is preaching Jesus and is demonstrating biblically valid signs (healing) by saying they are preaching a different Jesus, and the healing are false healings seems to me to be stretching a bias too far.

    Personally I wouldn’t look to Benny Hinn for any kind of anointing, but I possibly would have considered it in my younger days – in the same way I did turn to other “ministers” who were available, who years after the fact I recognised as being dodgy.

    Of course Mary wasn’t pregnant until she was thirty – never heard of anyone making that claim. And there are a lot of ridiculous things going on in various churches.

    Possibly a couple of months ago I would have eagerly joined the bash Todd White brigade, but after 9 weeks spent mostly seeking God, reading and studying the bible, and developing my prayer life, I’m not so quick to condemn others for preaching Jesus and praying for people wherever they go.
    Instead I’d rather be inspired by their example; taking note of what both Jesus and Paul said about others who were preaching Jesus for questionable motives. As I’ve also said, I have no suspicion about. Todd White’s motives. I see he cares for people and he loves the Lord.
    I choose to base my impression of him on what I’ve seen for myself, not the accusations made by others, that so far have mostly been unsupported by any evidence.

    Any wrong ideas he may have picked up should not be viewed any more harshly than the wrong ideas held by his attackers. The main difference between the two is that White is sharing the gospel to the extent of his understanding with thousands on the streets, in shops, restaurants etc., while those attacking him are spending their time tearing down anyone who disagrees with their cessationist, often Calvinist theologies, and show no evidence that they share the gospel with anyone – and clearly don’t share the gospel accompanied by healings.

  26. Of course Mary wasn’t pregnant until she was thirty – never heard of anyone making that claim. And there are a lot of ridiculous things going on in various churches.

    Correction: … until he was thirty

    Or, if the “logic” is continued, until who knows when. Until he died and there was darkness, or until his resurrection from the dead, or until he passed through a wall. Or …

    [I suggest you look at all the videos of him speaking.]

  27. Correction: … until he was thirty

    Oh dear – the lengths people will go to “prove” someone a heretic.

    What White was saying was that Mary kept the knowledge of Jesus’ divine origins within her own heart (compare Luke 2:19) until he was around 30 years old, and had received the Holy Spirit – and was at the wedding at Cana. White used the metaphor of pregnancy: that she was “pregnant” with the knowledge of His true identity until that point when she openly revealed that knowledge to get Him to help with the wine situation.

    Clearly the person who posted that video was so too intent on exposing the “heretic” to grasp that.

    I had seen that video of him speaking before without the context of the Todd bashing commentary that projected warped interpretations onto what he said.

    The other issue that causes horror to the Todd basher is White’s statement that Jesus was born as man and didn’t do any ministry under His own divine authority or power. In that White is 100% correct, but those people can’t accept it because they reject the fact that believers receive the same Holy Spirit and therefore have access to the same kind of power and authority that Jesus restricted Himself to.

  28. I do know what he was referring to (the wedding in Cana). The lengths you are going to now, when you used to be about what the Bible says, to instead make it okay that these people have other pet projects. That was what I found was going in with the topic of yours that you deleted, too. Another White… Paula… was leading people to have “abortions” (or something like spontaneous miscarriages) of bad ideas (the heading was abortion and praying for it). I noticed it was linked over to one of your long-time online friend’s websites. She’s also a corrector of “ministries.” Are you ending your following of that friend? Also, are you seeking where you will get anointed? Maybe you’ll end up in the White House? That’s where these people lead.

  29. Marleen, the point is that the reference to Mary being “pregnant” was not as weird as was being made out to be.

    It was a metaphor regarding the fact that she held onto the knowledge of Jesus being the Son of God until she urged Him to help out at the wedding. It was NOT a statement about her literally being pregnant until Jesus was 30 as was implied by the person who posted that video on the linked forum.

    I see nothing in that as being contrary to scripture, and don’t see it as a “pet project” of anyone – it was just someone sharing something they had seen in scripture, but in terms that sadly, others were able to twist and make into something sinister.

    And too often that is what some of these self-appointed heresy hunters do – they manufacture controversies and exaggerate them to give themselves purpose. There are more than enough GENUINE problems without twisting things to widen the heretic net.

    I deleted that other topic because I became aware of the toxic nature of a website that I’d used as one of the main references. In the process it is unfortunate that the links to Tricia’s What’s Happening blog became a casualty in that deletion, although I think she had also included links to the site that I have problems with.

    If I can salvage anything of that other article without the use of that objectionable website, that claimed certain people were worse than demons, then I will reinstate what I can.

    As for your other suggestions, are you deliberately trying to be offensive? Since when have I said anything about seeking to get “anointed”.
    Why would you even make such a snide suggestion?
    Because I’ve tried to apply truth to an area too often driven and fuelled by lies?
    Because I’ve taken time to see the evidence for myself instead of merely accepting the accusations being made?

    I have no time for the false doctrines and false practices of either extreme – I reject the hypercharismania, but I equally reject the faithless, gospel-less rumourmongers who have one aim, to tear others down, even resorting to lies to do it.

  30. Wow. So you’re ready to call a question “snide.” No. I’m actually wondering if you’ve changed your mind about people needing to be anointed or calling themselves anointed like these people do.

  31. You said: … Marleen, the point is that the reference to Mary being “pregnant” was not as weird as was being made out to be.

    I thought… due to your having looked through the site… that you would know and understand that we both knew/know this wasn’t about literal biology. I think it was clear enough what was being said, but there is a context among these “anointed” folks. While it’s not as weird as one might assume upon first reading, it’s weirder than one might conclude after noticing it’s not the other idea. I think, both, the recording of Todd and the concern of the “heresy hunters” (at least one person if not all) were clear on there not being a claim that Mary was conventionally pregnant for years.

    It was a metaphor regarding the fact that she held onto the knowledge of Jesus being the Son of God until she urged Him to help out at the wedding. It was NOT a statement about her literally being pregnant until Jesus was 30 as was implied by the person who posted that video on the linked forum.

    Similarly, what your longtime online friend had posted involved not anyone literally praying for physical abortion — but the word was how a headline read, if a person reading was not already initiated into the mindset of the pregnancy of ideas and moaning and groaning in church concepts. I think it can be said there wasn’t an “implication” or anything “twisted” by your friend, but a oddness of the wording and pet project these people have.

    I see nothing in that as being contrary to scripture, and don’t see it as a “pet project” of anyone – it was just someone sharing something they had seen in scripture, but in terms that sadly, others were able to twist and make into something sinister.

    And too often that is what some of these self-appointed heresy hunters do – they manufacture controversies and exaggerate them to give themselves purpose.

    I agree that exaggerating and misrepresentation happens. In many different directions, though. It’s not about picking a side, but about seeing what is happening.

    I deleted that other topic because I became aware of the toxic nature of a website that I’d used as one of the main references.

    I certainly agree, above all, that saying some people could be called “worse than demons” was wrong. I don’t remember seeing that line; I sort of skimmed that whole blog topic (rather than reading thoroughly). For one thing, Paula White has been heavily involved with Trump since before he was President, so I thought it was surprising it was presented as if she was new to the scene. (Apparently there’s some new title for her.)

    In the process it is unfortunate that the links to Tricia’s What’s Happening blog became a casualty in that deletion, although I think she had also included links to the site that I have problems with.

  32. Yes, what you wrote and how you wrote it did come across as snide and did not not come across as a mere “question”.

    are you seeking where you will get anointed? Maybe you’ll end up in the White House? That’s where these people

    I have to say how disappointed I have been that this topic has blown up into so much controversy.

    After writing so many posts of my personal studies and findings from scripture – to be met mostly with silence – and then all of this opposition to a video showing a man preaching the gospel and healing the sick and providing for the poor…
    It seems to show where priorities are.

    It is clearly so much easier to oppose and find fault. So much easier to seek out opinions from “heresy hunting” sites that misrepresent and misconstrue – while displaying their personal opposition to the ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit through the church, into the world.

  33. Oh Tim.. I know I said I wasn’t posting again on this topic.. however.. your statement above expressing your disappointment has missed the point I was making.

    I have known, and know, of those who have prayed for healing and seen the Holy Spirit heal, have shared the Gospel, and have provided for the poor – they haven’t posted videos about it, they’ve just got on with that (and still do) during their everyday lives – as the Lord has provides the opportunities.

    You know I don’t question genuine healings by the Holy Spirit – we have shared of some of these in the past. I don’t question those who share the true, full gospel from Scripture as given by God in the Bible – you also know that from our previous sharings.

    I do try to be Berean like and search Scripture for the truth on what I hear and see.

    My concern remains that Todd White has come under false teachers and teachings – the evidence is on the videos – not necessarily his fault, but being misled and deceived by others advice and counsel – as we all have been at one time or another. A number of those he associates and aligns with are known to have false teachings – some are heretical.

    Those false ones, who have come under a pseudo holy spirit (antichrist in nature) are operating in false signs and wonders – not just gold dust, gems and oil, also healings, prophecies, tongues etc. If these do not come from the Holy Spirit – then where do they come from..? they are satanic in source and to be avoided.

    If Todd White has come under this false (satanic/antichrist) anointing that requires others to pass on – rather than receiving directly from Almighty God – then the healings will be from a false source, and the gospel will not have the Holy Spirit conviction on the hearers.

    I am not ‘attacking’ or ‘bashing’ Todd White – I am concerned for him, and for those he is working with/praying for/sharing with. I have seen and spoken with some who have been misled by the false, including false healing, and have tried to share truth as the opportunity arises. My heart is for those ones.

    Maybe I should not have posted the links above – maybe I should have just shared my heart here together with my own experience in being misled into the false, having to repent when corrected, and then continuing in a wiser way by walking with Lord Jesus more closely and trying to hear the counsel of the Holy Spirit more clearly.

    For that posting of those links, I sincerely apologise.

    My serious concern for Todd White and those who he is sharing and praying with remains – for the reasons given above.

    ****
    I have been following on with your other blogs and continue to pray for you and yours. For a time I was not able to post comments, as I explained to you.

    In the love of Jesus the Messiah, our risen Lord,
    Roger

  34. Hi Roger,
    just wondering. Do you have biblical examples of false healings and false tongues?

    False prophecy had many examples and many warnings (and they can be products of the false prophet’s mind, not necessarily an evil spirit), but I can’t recall examples of false healings and tongues being mentioned.
    If you can give examples I’d appreciate it.

    Regarding a pseudo holy spirit (antichrist in nature), John writes that such a spirit does not acknowledge Jesus, denying He is the Christ, and in particular does not acknowledge that He came ” in the flesh” (in other words, as a flesh and blood man).

    whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son (1 John 2)

    and

    This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist (1John 4)

    and

    I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 john )

  35. Good morning Tim,
    No, I have no biblical examples of false healings and false tongues.

    I have heard false tongues being spoken – by false I mean not of the Holy Spirit – and am aware of others who have a similar testimony. I have also seen and heard false healings – I was at those meetings. I know individuals who were convinced they were being healed, but were not actually healed.

    None of the above takes away from my belief there are genuine healings and genuine tongue gifts from God today. Those experiences provide me proof that we must continually check and separate the true from the false – that which is of God and that which isn’t.

    With regard to a pseudo holy spirit, you quote 1 John 2 “..whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ..”

    This is the key point isn’t it ? There is a teaching today, and Todd White has associations with some who teach this, that Jesus was born a man (flesh and blood) and gave up His diety in doing so. This teaching includes that it was only when Jesus received the Holy Spirit after His water baptism by John that He was then able to perform miracles and teach as He did. This teaching goes on to say that He died as a man.

    Yes, there is a truth in that teaching – but the false belief behind that teaching includes that by giving up His diety, Jesus was not the Messiah through that time, thereby denying that Jesus is the Christ, God come in the flesh.

    I believe that Scripture is adamant that Jesus retained His diety, was and is always the Messiah from God, and when on Earth remained 100% God (and Messiah) whilst being 100% flesh and blood man. To deny this is to deny Father and Son. As to why He didn’t perform miracles and spread His Gospel until after the Holy Spirit descended on Him – I believe that was a choice to be an example to mankind – in the same way that He was flesh and blood man for a time so that He could be the blood sacrifice for atonement for the sin of all mankind

    One can still teach the gospel and perform signs and wonders in the name of Jesus – but if the true belief of who Jesus is, and always was during His life on Earth, isn’t present – will God recognise those ‘works’ ?

    None of this takes away from the heart belief of the receiver – so whilst there may be a false teacher sharing some truth mixed with error – God see’s the heart of those who hear. He knows whether the belief is genuine and there will always be those who desire Him in truth. I know of one person whose friends are adamant she was saved through attending a Toronto blessing meeting, my own opinion is that those meetings were (and are) based on the false and include spiritual manifestations not from the Holy Spirit. My conclusion is that God knew/knows her heart and she was saved through her belief in Jesus as Messiah and Lord – so ‘in spite of false gospel’ rather than ‘because of it’. The same applies to healings – God will heal because of the individuals heart belief and faith in Him.

    In the love of Lord Jesus the Messiah,
    Roger

  36. Yes, there is a truth in that teaching – but the false belief behind that teaching includes that by giving up His deity, Jesus was not the Messiah through that time, thereby denying that Jesus is the Christ, God come in the flesh

    Roger,

    I have not heard Todd White or anyone else making the claim that Jesus was not the Messiah. I have only heard him stating exactly what I believe, and what I’ve shown David Pawson to be preaching, (and what you earlier said YOU believe) that Jesus did nothing under His own divine authority or power, but only everything under the Father’s authority in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    During His earthly ministry, though being God, He lived and ministered as a Holy Spirit filled man and not through His own Divinity. He ministered through the power of the SAME Holy Spirit that Spirit filled men and women today have received, and therefore we have access to that same Spirit to do the same works (and greater) that Jesus did.
    It is that latter truth that the Spirit-denying heresy hunters have trouble with, leading them to make baseless accusations.

    In fact I’ve heard it blatantly taught that Jesus WAS the Messiah and the fact highlighted by pointing out that the name “Son of David” was a title of Messiah, and there is the obvious revelation spoken by Peter: “you are the Christ, Son of the Living God”

    There is far too much reliance on the spurious claims of heresy-hunting websites, where the writers and site owners do not believe in Spiritual gifts. I’ve seen far too many lies and misrepresentations being presented on some of those sites, and see them as no less demonic than the alleged beliefs, actions and excesses they are attributing to others. THEY are the ones who are making the lying accusation that White and others are denying that Jesus was the Messiah, because THEY can’t get their minds around the fact that the Holy Spirit can work through men today. So they HAVE to insist that Jesus ministering in healing and deliverance was somehow unique and inaccessible to believers today.

    I checked out the links you provided previously and I saw NO claim they made that had any validity – but instead displayed their own doctrinal shortcomings, and their rejection of Spiritual gifts. If they reject healing gifts for any believers other than the original apostles (as one site did) it becomes clear why they see their role is to denounce anyone today claiming to operate in those gifts.

    It seems I have less faith in the devil’s ability to counterfeit the genuine than others do. I’d be more inclined to attribute “fake tongues” and healings to the human mind, with people deceiving themselves through a combination of wishful thinking and lack of understanding of God and His ways.
    I can’t see the devil being behind anything that is being done in the name of Jesus.

  37. Tim,
    Do you think or believe or have faith Jesus/Y’shua was The Messiah at the time of his physical birth? Obviously, not everything had been finished at that time — but I believe he was already the messiah. No one else becomes an anointed (which you have previously recognized they don’t) or among the anointed (the messiah or the Manifest Sons of God or whatever other niche wording)) later in life (as they say he did later in life and they do by being anointed). Yes, other people besides Him can work in the Holy Spirit. Do you still believe applying the word to them that they are the anointed/messiah is mistaken or wrong? Or do you not?

  38. Tim, you said above: “I can’t see the devil being behind anything that is being done in the name of Jesus.”

    I struggle with accepting that statement as correct, given scripture says that not everything done in His name is His will – and that false christs will rise up. The scriptures you shared earlier from John’s letters declare these to be antichrist in spirit and person – so are their signs and wonders true or false ? Given that scripture declares (in context) these signs and wonders intend to lead astray, I see them as not of God.

    Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven.  Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; “depart from Me, those working lawlessness!” Mat 7:21-23

    Then if anyone says to you, Behold, here is the Christ! Or, Here! Do not believe.  For false christs and false prophets will rise up. And they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I tell you beforehand.  Then if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness; do not go out. Behold, He is in the inner rooms; do not believe. Mat 24-26

    In Him, Roger

  39. I struggle with accepting that statement as correct, given scripture says that not everything done in His name is His will

    Yes, good point Roger, my mistake.

  40. Marleen, I have never said that others can’t be anointed.
    All believers can be anointed with the Holy Spirit, and HE is the only biblical anointing available to believers, and is available to ALL believers.

    Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

    I have said there aren’t SPECIAL anointings, that make one believer more “anointed” than another – or that have special distinct properties, like “prophetic anointing”, or an “Elijah anointing for example.

    As for whether Jesus was Messiah/Christ at the time of His physical birth, it’s not something I’ve ever considered, but is something I’d have to study more.
    I probably would have said yes, of course – but not have any biblical support for my agreement. After this has been raised it’s something I want to look more into in scripture so any belief I have is not based on assumption.

    If any scripture reference can be given as a starting point I’d appreciate it.
    I have no time to follow it up for myself at the moment – I’m heading off for chemo.

  41. Marleen – thank you for asking that question of Tim as to whether Jesus was Messiah/Christ at the time of His physical birth.. and Tim, thank you for asking for a scripture reference as a starting point. Both questions got me thinking..!

    I stated in comments above that I believe He was Messiah at birth, and have long believed/assumed that as truth, knowing that a Saviour was promised by God, through the prophets, long before His birth.

    The only scripture I can find at this point, which indicates Jesus was Messiah/Christ at birth is from Luke 2:10-12 And the angel said to them, Do not fear. For, behold, I proclaim good news to you, a great joy, which will be to all people,  because today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, was born to you in the city of David. And this is a sign to you: You will find a babe having been wrapped, lying in the manger. which implies that Jesus IS Christ the Lord at birth, rather than WILL BE Christ in the future.

    We also know that Jesus first advent to Earth was as Saviour, and that He will return in the future as King.

    There is a study where the writer whilst not denying Jesus deity for the full time he was on Earth (birth to ascension), argues that the term Christ (anointed one) had a lot to do with being King and not just Saviour. He believes, from scripture, that Jesus was not Christ until the Holy Spirit anointed Him after He was water baptised. Link here: http://www.wordexplain.com/When_did_the_Man_Jesus_become_The_Christ.html

    In the article he also raises the Luke 2 verses under ‘objections’ to his discussion/study.

    ****
    We will continue praying for you Tim as you continue treatment, and understand you may need a recovery period before posting again.

    In the love of Lord Jesus the Messiah,
    Roger

  42. We can also look at Luke 1 and see that Mary was told she would bear a son whom she would name Jesus (Immanuel – God is with us) v31 and that in v47 Mary exults in “God my saviour”.

    Joseph too was told that Mary would bear a son who “..shall save His people from their sins..” (Matt 1:21-23) and that this was prophesied through Isaiah 7:14 including the name Emmanuel.

    These verses do not specifically state whether Jesus was Messiah from birth or at His baptism – but together with the Luke 2:11 referenced in my above post perhaps imply that Jesus was Messiah at birth.

  43. I suspect this issue, considering scripture itself does not make a big blatant issue about it, could fit quite easily into the category “straining out a gnat but swallowing a camel”. Making too much of an inconsequential issue and blowing it up to have an importance it was never intended to have.

    I recall CS Lewis had an essay “Fern-seed and Elephants” in which he described how we can focus so hard on the minute “fern-seed” that we miss the elephant standing right beside it.

    Considering the period between Jesus’ birth and His anointing with the Holy Spirit are given no consequence in scripture (apart from that one situation when He was 12 years old) I can’t see how important it should be to make the issue of whether He was Messiah during those silent years into a matter of declaring some one guilty of heresy.

  44. I understand the heresy accusation is pointed at those who deny that Jesus retained His deity whilst on Earth.
    Those ones claim He was just a man, not God-man. That then leads into the teaching that He was the same as we are, just flesh and blood, which then leads into the claim that that those ones can be as Him when empowered by the Holy Spirit – so they then become christs.

  45. That then leads into the teaching that He was the same as we are, just flesh and blood, which then leads into the claim that that those ones can be as Him when empowered by the Holy Spirit

    But Roger, THAT is exactly what is the case, that Jesus (although being God) submitted entirely – as a flesh and blood man – to the Father’s will, and the Holy Spirit’s power, and did not rely on His own Divine power and authority.

    In past comments you have stated that you agree with that view as per the very same view preached by David Pawson, who also made it clear that this means that any receptive believer should have access to the same Holy Spirit empowerment to do the same works (and greater) that Jesus did.

    We seem to be going in circles here with you stating a belief you hold, and then later seemingly opposing the very belief you have previously claimed to hold.

    As for the accusation of Jesus’ deity being denied I strongly suspect that is yet another unfounded claim being made by those who oppose ongoing Holy Spirit ministry.

    They project those claims of deity denial onto others who believe Jesus (who was, is and ever will be God) did not use His personal power and authority while ministering on earth.
    Those accusers have an agenda of their own – to oppose the truth that the same Holy Spirit empowering Jesus is the Holy Spirit available to empower us for the ministry Jesus commissioned the church to do.

  46. Hi Tim, I’m sorry it seems that we are going in circles, that is not my intent.

    My belief remains the same that Jesus was born flesh and blood – to the Father’s will and the Holy Spirit power – we agree. However, I believe Scripture declares Jesus retained His deity through His time on Earth, so whilst He became 100% flesh and blood He retained His 100% deity, but would not use His power, only that of the Holy Spirit as His Fathers direction.

    The ones I speak of, falsely teach that Jesus completely gave up His deity whilst on Earth – so they say He was born ONLY 100% flesh and blood, and retained no deity whatsoever. They teach that Jesus was born exactly as you and I – 100% flesh and blood, no deity. They teach that Jesus was enchristed at the time of His baptism.

    This belief of theirs of Jesus retaining no deity whatsoever, means (they say) that He and we are the same, and therefore we remain the same flesh and blood only, until empowered by the Holy Spirit – then, they teach, we become exactly as Jesus – a christ. In conclusion, they teach, we become christs, or little gods.

    In this teaching they bring Jesus down to the same level as all men – flesh and blood – until ‘enchristed’ by the Holy Spirit, at which time, those ‘enchristed’ men become exactly the same as the ‘enchristed’ Jesus.

    The words they use vary, the base teaching and belief is the same – each Holy Spirit empowered man becomes another christ.

    These teachings are a play on scripture which teaches Lord Jesus indwells by the Holy Spirit those who are His.

    I don’t know how else to share this Tim – Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Bill Johnson all teach a variation of this (as do a growing number of others) they wrap scriptures around it, they twist other scripture, they include their own Biblical interpretation and deceive many.

    This is not new, has been building for some years now – many are aware of it and share as they can. Some accept these teachings are false, many don’t. We did speak of this on Strom’s forum – the heresies have only increased since then.

    As an aside Tarot cards are now renamed Destiny cards, Ouija boards are renamed Angel boards – and both are being introduced, and accepted and used, by misled and deceived individuals who desire to know Lord Jesus but are being seduced by a different gospel to meet with a different jesus.

  47. The ones I speak of, falsely teach that Jesus completely gave up His deity whilst on Earth – so they say He was born ONLY 100% flesh and blood, and retained no deity whatsoever. They teach that Jesus was born exactly as you and I – 100% flesh and blood, no deity. They teach that Jesus was enchristed at the time of His baptism

    Is that REALLY the case, or is it just another example of the heresy-hunting community projecting their own false interpretations onto the people they oppose? I’ve seen that happening A LOT including in links you recently provided.

    Often any “guilt” is more like careless expression of a valid idea than devious intent to reduce Jesus.

    But I’m more interested in seeking God’s Kingdom first than in trying to unearth and expose claimed heretics.
    Do the former and the latter will never be a problem to anyone.

    I’ve decided more than enough has been said on this topic.

  48. Pingback: More Todd White Repentance Commentary | Onesimus Files

  49. Pingback: Todd White part 3 | Onesimus Files

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