10
Oct
16

Reaping What Was Sown.


American evangelicalism has long been seduced by the corrupt hybrid of nationalistic religion and conservative politics.

But I was still stunned to see a respected bible teacher like Bill Randles saying something like this: “Donald Trump emerged, promising sane things…”*.

That anything coming out of the mouth of Donald Trump during any stage of his presidential campaign could be described as “sane things” and especially by a professing Christian leader shows how incredibly far US evangelical Christianity has fallen.

The recently unearthed and broadcast videos of Trump in which he speaks of his celebrity status enabling him to get away with sexually assaulting women has not really revealed anything new about his character that hadn’t already been revealed in his public speeches.

Whatever comes out of the current presidential campaign, God is giving America, and especially the US evangelical church the type of government it deserves.

onog

* https://billrandles.wordpress.com/2016/10/09/god-is-exposing-our-shame-america/

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74 Responses to “Reaping What Was Sown.”


  1. October 10, 2016 at 9:51 am

    Evangelicals or not evangelicals?
    That is the question.

    Both of these came before the most recent Trump revelations.

    1) http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/evangelicals-have-rallied-to-trumps-side/

    [Trump’s] popularity among white evangelical Republicans has grown significantly, and now the group is one of his strongest bases of support. According to a June survey by the Pew Research Center, 94 percent of them would vote for Trump over Clinton in November.

    2) https://www.change.org/p/donald-trump-a-declaration-by-american-evangelicals-concerning-donald-trump

    A significant mistake in American politics is the media’s continued identification of “evangelical” with mostly white, politically conservative, older men. We are not those evangelicals. The media’s narrow labels of our community perpetuate stereotypes, ignore our diversity, and fail to accurately represent views expressed by the full body of evangelical Christians.

    We are Americans of African and European descent, Latino/a, Asian American, and Native American. We are women and men, as well as younger and older evangelical Christians. We come from a wide range of denominations, churches, and political orientations.

    Mr. Trump has fueled white American nationalism with xenophobic appeals and religious intolerance at the expense of gospel values, democratic principles, and important international relationships. He mocks women and the sanctity of marriage vows, disregards facts and the accountability to truth, and worships wealth and shameful materialism,

  2. 2 Marleen
    October 10, 2016 at 7:49 pm

    Virtue signalling? This preacher, Randles, is actually linking to a trail of articles that puts Republicans down for caring — that is the few who are caring this time around — about behaving properly. One thread of thought therein apparently thinks using the “p” word (which truly is unacceptable in the way George W. is alleged to have said it) is as bad as bragging about committing sexual assault and telling other people they are the ones who don’t understand the meaning of said words.

    I have repented (long ago) of following Focus on the Family’s lead in voting for George W. Bush. What we are now being told to do is degrade further yet. By the way, looks like Republican/Trump hacks haven’t noticed that — while they say Democrats are ignoring an aggressive Russia — their own hope, Trump, is pro Iran-Syria-Russia. And other Republicans/Libertarians bemoan a loss of supposed friendship with Russia (in accord with Trump’s pining for collusion with Russia).

  3. October 11, 2016 at 7:37 am

    Marleen,
    yesterday was one of the most depressing I’ve experienced in recent times. Surprisingly I still find it hard to believe the kind of hateful political ideologies pervading allegedly “Christian” groups and their teachings.

    One thing I noticed in the comments section of Randles’ blog, is how non-American commenters have all made similar observations about the current American political situation, but all of those observations are falling on unreceptive ears.

    I’ve just posted the following comment on the Randles blog:

    The constant expressions of hostility directed at Obama by professing Christians (which is now being redirected to Clinton) are a major reason for the current political situation in America today.

    God has heard the hatred being spouted by those claiming allegiance to Him and is giving them the option of the kind of leader their hatred cries out for.

  4. 4 Marleen
    October 11, 2016 at 8:01 am

    He also links to this article — with no consciousness on his part that Obama was making a satirical comment: http://www.weeklystandard.com/obama-it-would-be-so-much-easier-to-be-the-president-of-china/article/554013

    Additional quote: On Libya’s Qaddafi, the president “stated that when a leader’s only means of staying in power is to use mass violence against his own people, he has lost the legitimacy to rule and needs to do what is right for his country by leaving now,” according to the White House.

    [Continues] Never mind that Obama’s statement was undermined directly by his director of national intelligence, who yesterday said that it is his belief that Qaddafi will remain in power. The president told Qaddafi to leave. And as President Lyndon Johnson reportedly said, “Don’t tell a man to go to hell unless you intend to send him there.” [End quote and end of article.]

    Qaddafi is not now in power, and Republicans say THAT is bad.
    They themselves are completely conflicted,
    but just blame Obama.

    A quote from another slanderous Randles article (about “leftists” hating the internet): [Randles cites an article from over two years ago]…end the long-running contract between the Commerce Department and the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN), a California-based nonprofit group. That contract is set to expire next year but could be extended if the transition plan is not complete.[… Craig Timberg, Washington Post, March 14, 2014

    [Quote of Randles after] The handover is supposed to take place on October 1st, 2016,
    and is being ignored by the ‘legacy Media’. [End quote.]

    But there is no source cited for this 2016 claim (not even from his beloved alt-right media).

    Not to mention any basis for saying the left hates the internet or free speech.
    Meanwhile, as I’ve pointed out before, Trump has said he wants to silence his critics.

    And here is a hidden black evangelical [such as Randle complains we don’t see] — after the white ones early on: http://splitsider.com/2016/07/jordan-klepper-investigates-trumps-christianity-at-the-rnc-on-the-daily-show/

    In the debate last night, Trump repeated his oft-told lie that Muslim neighbors saw “bombs all over the floor” (in California) and didn’t tell anyone. [What neighbors really saw was packages delivered. So somebody should report me too; I get kinda a lot of packages, oh, but I’m not brown or black]. This was his answer to an individual woman who was concerned about Islamophobia. He didn’t care about her.

  5. October 11, 2016 at 8:22 am

    On the same day that Randles posted his article on leftists hating the internet and planning to stop free speech, I saw another article about how Trump would put a stop to free speech because of the news article that exposed his (non) tax situation. But I couldn’t draw attention to that article on Randles blog because it came from what is possibly a “leftist” publication. [and according to Randles, the left is an “anti-Christ movement”]

  6. October 11, 2016 at 8:48 am

    My closing paragraph in the original post read: “Whatever comes out of the current presidential campaign, God is giving America, and especially the US evangelical church the type of government it deserves.”

    I later realised that maybe a better way of expressing this would be: “God has heard the hostility being spouted by those claiming allegiance to Him and is giving them the option of the kind of leader their hatred cries out for.

  7. 7 Marleen
    October 11, 2016 at 9:10 am

    I agree with you that “God has heard … the hatred … by those claiming allegiance to Him and is giving them [their choice] the option of the kind of leader their hatred cries out for.”

  8. October 11, 2016 at 9:19 am

    Bill Randles has made a request.:

    Onesimus I think you should let your blog readers know that I am not a Trump supporter, even tho I said Trump said some sane things.( I know that stunned you but he did, such as ending the flood of immigration and especially from dangerous terror ridden places. Seems sane to me, and you didn’t have to read anything “stunning into it”, I wasn’t supporting Trump only trying to explain why he seems plausible to many.

    In my original post I gave a link to the article in question that also contains a long string of comments, so any reader can asses the situation for themselves.

  9. 9 Marleen
    October 11, 2016 at 9:32 am

    Quote: At one time, in my lifetime, this is virtually all we had for “news” and “information”. [End quote.]

    Is he much older than 53? Because that statement was not true in my lifetime (nor my mother’s).
    Latecomers start paying attention and think nothing was going on before themselves.

    But what is true is that we are recently learning how African Americans were discriminated against during a time when it was already being said that negros [I’m giving a time context by using that word] have nothing to complain about as slavery is over.

  10. October 11, 2016 at 9:38 am

    I’m not sure of his age, although I think he must be in his 50s.
    I seem to recall he became a Christian some time in the 70s, around the same time as I first heard the gospel and started to attend Christian fellowships.

  11. October 11, 2016 at 9:53 am

    While I’ll give Bill the benefit of the doubt, and accept his word that he wasn’t intending to express support for Trump, the fact remains, he DOES continue the type of aggressive anti Obama and anti Clinton rhetoric that instigated and encouraged the rise of Trump. And by continuing it he gives de-facto support for Trump even though that might not be his intention.

  12. 12 Roger
    October 11, 2016 at 10:11 am

    Hi both 🙂

    I’ve just been reading through here (and Bills blog) and catching up.. Under “About Pastor Bill…..” tag he says he is 51 – the comments in reply start in 2010, so Bill is at least 57 and possibly older.

    I would have liked to ‘add to’ the comments on Bill’s blog, trying to explain how others view the patriot label he gives himself (both currently and in previous blogs) – however, I’m not sure anything I added to the current list of comments would better ‘explain’ than you and others have already written.

    My originally emigrating from UK to NZ, and being a permanent resident here whilst retaining my UK citizenship, has left me with a question about “who am I ?” with respect to which country I ‘belong to’.

    That same ‘in limbo’ feeling has helped me to better understand my permanent position in the Kingdom of God, whilst still resident here on Earth… which means that I can never call myself a patriot of either UK or NZ.

  13. October 11, 2016 at 10:32 am

    Hi Roger, very good to hear from you.

    I REALLY identify with your statement:

    “My originally emigrating from UK to NZ, and being a permanent resident here whilst retaining my UK citizenship, has left me with a question about “who am I ?” with respect to which country I ‘belong to’. “

    As you know I am also an immigrant, having left England at age 13, I’ve lived the next 45 years in Australia. While I identify as Australian (according to citizenship) I’ve always had a sense of not really belonging. That’s one thing I love about relationship with Jesus – it makes sense of my feeling of not belonging here, and it gives me a home not reliant on my physical location on earth.
    Maybe that makes me hyper-sensitive to the kind of hyper-patriotism that seems to affect so many American Christians, that leads them to hold some very questionable ideas.

    I see now that Bill Randles has posted another article about Trump, trying to clarify his position. But yet again he maintains the kind of Obama and Clinton bashing that I believe has opened the door to someone like Trump.
    I note in particular a link to video in which it is claimed Clinton demands that Christians change their religion. I also noted that the “news network” it links to is highly dodgy, identified by many as being a “fake news” site”. I also note that the reporter spends some time priming his audience regarding what Clinton has said before playing a short video excerpt that has no indication of its context.
    And while she does say something about religious beliefs needing to be changed (again without any idea given of the context) she doesn’t single out Christianity as the “news” report claims.

    To what depths has “Christianity” fallen when it becomes driven by lies, innuendo and hatred? THAT kind of Christianity and its beliefs DO need to be changed, (though clearly not in the way alleged in the fake news site cited by Randles).

  14. 14 Marleen
    October 11, 2016 at 11:32 am

    He did, in (at least) one of the articles/posts I read there, point to a bunch of fake (twisted and irresponsible) “news” sites (ironically while he called other sources “news” as in so-called — and apparently has a hard time discerning for informative establishments). I’m not unfamiliar with this stuff.

    Conservatives will say out of one side of their mouth that Islam is a bad religion that doesn’t respect women — and then gasp when Hillary (speaking in a world context) says there are deep-seated beliefs that need changing. (I didn’t see that he linked to that, but I’m pretty sure I know what was referenced.)

    Hey, Onesimus: remember the black conservative conservatives rejected back when they pushed W.? They said it was because the black guy couldn’t get elected (not because anything was wrong with him in their eyes as far as they would say, but they wouldn’t talk him up and back him instead of talk him down).

  15. 15 Marleen
    October 11, 2016 at 11:33 am

    Hi, Roger!

  16. October 11, 2016 at 11:44 am

    Hilary’s statement about religious beliefs needed to be changed is 100% correct – although whether what she meant in a context that wasn’t shown is another matter. There are many beliefs held by Christians that have nothing at all to do with the Truth, but are beliefs that have been passed from generation to generation despite having no biblical foundation.

    But no matter what Hilary’s intended meaning was, to say she was demanding that Christians change their religion was an outright lie as was the caption on the linked video from that fake news source that read:

    HILLARY: CHRISTIANS IN AMERICA MUST DENY THEIR FAITH IN CHRISTIANITY

    And as for the angry looking photo of Hilary seeming to scream: “Kneel and deny your Christian faith” that has to be one of the grossest examples of “Christian” dishonesty I’ve seen. I’m MORE than willing to deny the kind of “Christianity” that endorses such dishonesty.

  17. 17 Marleen
    October 11, 2016 at 12:09 pm

    AMEN. God help us.

  18. October 12, 2016 at 12:30 am

    Hi, Tim:

    I appreciated the commonsense your comments injected on Randle’s blog (as did other commenters, most outside the U.S.).

    Your warning against manipulative factionalism was especially on-point. In his comments, Bill seems to be captive to the all-too-familiar “theology” that “leftist”/”communist”/”liberal” = evil (and not coincidentally, anti-American, and un”patriotic”). But he seemed willing to hear your rebuke on that score, so maybe God’s working on his heart,

    I’ve quite had to stand back from this election. There’s simply not time, nor does it seem fruitful, to try to deal with the daily outrages against good manners, commonsense, Truth, and righteousness.

    Standing back, I have to reduce it all to its simplest moral terms, and its two major players. If the American Church can’t distinguish between “good” and “evil” (which, I’d emphasize, are NOT characterizations of either human candidate), how real is its Christianity ? If the American Church self-deceives itself (on POLITICAL considerations) to approve evil, how is it following Jesus ?

    Roger and Marleen, your faithfulness and wisdom in this dire time for the American Church greatly encourages me that the Spirit has not yet given up on us !

    blessings to all, Steve

  19. 19 Marleen
    October 12, 2016 at 6:29 am

    I want to remind people that biblical principle says accusing someone falsely earns one the punishment, him/her self, that would have been due the perpetrator had the charge been true.

    There are exceptions to this turnaround of consequence. A husband accusing his wife of adultery is excused, but his way of handling it is to take her to the Temple (in Jerusalem only).

    Similarly, I would say a woman can accuse a person of rape or assault even though it can’t be proven (which isn’t the same as it not being true) — without risking God’s wrath.

  20. October 12, 2016 at 7:54 am

    Hi Steve,
    Sadly Bill has fallen for a practice that has been all too common among Christians – believing and passing on rhetoric from deceptive sources.
    His link to site where Clinton is made to appear like she’s screaming “Kneel and deny your Christian faith” is at BEST foolish if not total dishonesty.

    I’ve said all I can on his blog and have now unsubscribed.

  21. October 12, 2016 at 8:02 am

    I want to remind people that biblical principle says accusing someone falsely earns one the punishment, him/her self, that would have been due the perpetrator had the charge been true.

    Worth repeating.

    Bill Randles has said more than once that he’s not a supporter of Trump, but I don’t think that is the issue. It is the hatred and lies directed firstly at Obama (the first black President) and now at Clinton (the potential first female president) that I see as a greater problem than supporting Trump.

    I suspect that the lies and hatred have made it possible for someone like Trump to get to where he is. In particular “evangelicals” have been given the candidate their attitudes and actions have cried out for.

  22. 22 Marleen
    October 12, 2016 at 8:42 am

    Thank you; God bless you Steve, Roger, and Tim.

  23. 23 Jeanne T.
    October 12, 2016 at 11:30 am

    How long have you been following Pastor Randles?

  24. 24 Jeanne T.
    October 12, 2016 at 11:32 am

    “Bill Randles has said more than once that he’s not a supporter of Trump, but I don’t think that is the issue. It is the hatred and lies directed firstly at Obama (the first black President) and now at Clinton (the potential first female president) that I see as a greater problem than supporting Trump.”

    Has Bill Randles directed hatred and lies against Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton? Are you just as angry at lies that may have been directed at Donald Trump?

  25. October 12, 2016 at 11:46 am

    Hi Jeanne, thank you for taking time to comment on my blog.

    I’ve been aware of Bill’s teaching and have been listening to his recorded sermons for several years. I referred to his blog occasionally and early this year I started “following” his blog to get email notifications of his new posts.

    And as for the hatred and lies: yes, I do believe he has participated and promoted such things in his recent posts. One example is the linking to an anti-Clinton video that was guilty of the worst kind of lying and manipulation to “prove” its doctored point. And Randles’ also called Clinton as “a psychotic warmonger”. I have no time or desire to trawl through his posts and comments again to find more examples.

    If lies have been directed at Trump they are no less abominable – but I’ve yet to see anything of that kind, at least to the same extent, being promoted by professing Christians.

  26. 26 Marleen
    October 12, 2016 at 11:48 am

    Jeanne, I personally have said in the past that Trump didn’t say anything about wanting to commit violence against a woman when someone compared him to someone else. Turns out I was wrong.

  27. October 12, 2016 at 11:58 am

    When Trump’s only defences are “it was only ‘locker room banter'” and “Bill actually did it but I only said it” – his excuses shouldn’t hold any authority with people professing to be Christians. Scripture tells us that the mouth speaks what is in the heart, that we’ll be judged by the words we speak and that its not only our actions that make us guilty of offense, but our thoughts too. Adultery is not only in the act, but in the looking with lustfulness..

  28. October 12, 2016 at 12:17 pm

    A suggestion for a few REASONABLE voting possibilities open to the American Christian.

    1) Vote for Trump without trying to justify that decision by denigrating Clinton

    2) Vote for Clinton without trying to justify that decision by denigrating Trump

    3) Vote for one of the other candidates without trying to justify that decision by denigrating both Clinton and Trump

    4) Don’t vote.

    Also don’t be swayed by anyone else’s attempts to denigrate a candidate, or by partisan commentary that runs down an opposing candidate or by manipulative websites, videos and articles (note the emphasis here is on manipulative).
    Judge a candidate by what you actually see and hear for yourself.

    Remember, the unsaved world us watching, what kind of Christian witness are your voting attitudes giving to them?

  29. 29 Marleen
    October 12, 2016 at 12:23 pm

    Trump has been accused (before the recent tape came out) of actually doing things that he says are lies (by actual humans — women). We were told he wouldn’t be anything like that. False.

  30. 30 Marleen
    October 12, 2016 at 12:28 pm

    Forgot: there’s also a thirteen year old girl. Guess that’s why he’s said twelve is too young.

  31. 31 Jeanne T.
    October 12, 2016 at 12:28 pm

    “Judge a candidate by what you actually see and hear for yourself.”

    And that’s exactly what I’m doing, as I’m sure you’ll agree.

  32. October 12, 2016 at 12:33 pm

    Its possibly only a matter of time before more stories accusations come out. Maybe in light of the tape, some of those accusations might be taken more seriously.

    In recent years its been shown how some celebrities have been able to exploit their status to get away with sexual abuse – the kind of thing Trump was boasting about. But for some that “protection” didn’t last.

    In the UK there was Jimmy Saville, who died before anything was made public. Then there was Rolf Harris, a one time children’s entertainer who is serving jail time for various sexual offences. In the US there were regular rumours and a court case involving Michael Jackson, and currently the ongoing Bill Cosby situation.

  33. 33 Jeanne T.
    October 12, 2016 at 12:35 pm

    “When Trump’s only defences are “it was only ‘locker room banter’” and “Bill actually did it but I only said it” – his excuses shouldn’t hold any authority with people professing to be Christians. ”

    I agree. But that doesn’t mean we can’t criticize the candidates. And frankly, I cannot understand why anyone professing to be a follower of Jesus Christ could justify voting for Hillary Clinton, either. And that statement is not “hateful”.

  34. October 12, 2016 at 12:43 pm

    I think the important thing is to vote for a candidate for what THEY can GENUINELY offer.
    Don’t allow your vote to be a negative response to what is claimed about someone else.

    Who is really most fit for the WHOLE job – unfortunately Christians can allow their decisions to be swayed by single issues rather than the WHOLE area of presidential responsibility: remembering you are voting for the leader a secular government within a secular nation and that no candidates on offer are followers of Jesus.

  35. 35 Jeanne T.
    October 12, 2016 at 12:54 pm

    “Jeanne, I personally have said in the past that Trump didn’t say anything about wanting to commit violence against a woman when someone compared him to someone else. Turns out I was wrong.”

    Marlene, what is your argument?

  36. October 12, 2016 at 12:59 pm

    As long as your criticisms are CORRECTLY informed and aren’t formed through reliance on the propaganda of their opponents.
    Personally I can’t understand how anyone Christian could vote for Trump, whose character has been on public display throughout the whole campaign and the revelations continue to get worse and whose planned “policies” are foolish and destructive.

    For example his commitment to cut taxes in half – the “effectiveness” of that kind of action can be seen back in the Reagan years when taxes were slashed significantly and the shortfall in revenue had to be recouped through heavy cuts to welfare, particularly in low-income housing programs.
    The result was a massive increase in homelessness that has worsened ever since. (see my post here: https://onesimusfiles.wordpress.com/2015/12/18/cost-of-rewarding-the-rich/ )

    I know I were American I defiantly couldn’t vote for Trump. I’m not sure if I could vote for Clinton either – but if I HAD to vote for one or the other I’d see her as the least of two evils.

  37. 37 Jeanne T.
    October 12, 2016 at 1:07 pm

    “I’m not sure if I could vote for Clinton either – but if I HAD to vote for one or the other I’d see her as the least of two evils.”

    Why?

  38. 38 Jeanne T.
    October 12, 2016 at 1:13 pm

    “As long as your criticisms are CORRECTLY informed and aren’t formed through reliance on the propaganda of their opponents.”

    Well, thank God my criticisms are “correctly” informed!

  39. October 12, 2016 at 1:30 pm

    “I’m not sure if I could vote for Clinton either – but if I HAD to vote for one or the other I’d see her as the least of two evils.”

    Why?

    Because I’ve seen enough of Trump to see he’s VERY unsuited for the job in temperament, in policy, morality, intellect, diplomatic skills, business integrity and political naivety/inexperience – oh and I shouldn’t forget his problem with truthfulness.

    While Clinton also has her problems, she’s extremely experienced in most aspects of what is needed in a position that not only affects America, but also America’s relationships with allies and potential enemies.

  40. 40 Marleen
    October 12, 2016 at 1:31 pm

    Quote from Jeanne: “Jeanne, I personally have said in the past that Trump didn’t say anything about wanting to commit violence against a woman when someone compared him to someone else. Turns out I was wrong.”

    Marlene, what is your argument?

    Me (Marleen), response: in answer to your question earlier,
    whether someone correcting for lies about Hillary might correct for lies about Trump…

    I think that’s pretty clear what I mean. I suppose you were really asking Onesimus, though.

  41. October 12, 2016 at 1:37 pm

    Well, thank God my criticisms are “correctly” informed!

    Hopefully not by sources such as the video linked on Bill Randles site. The only video I’ve seen more deceptive and manipulative than that one was a poorly diced and spliced concoction created out of statements by Obama to “prove” he admitted to being a Muslim.

  42. 42 Jeanne T.
    October 12, 2016 at 1:49 pm

    “While Clinton also has her problems, she’s extremely experienced in most aspects of what is needed in a position that not only affects America, but also America’s relationships with allies and potential enemies.”

    I can see that this discussion has been a complete waste of my time.

  43. October 12, 2016 at 2:53 pm

    Why?

    How about you wait to see my next post with the convincing anti-Clinton message that Bill linked to in his recent post.

  44. 45 Jeanne T.
    October 13, 2016 at 1:16 am

    “the first black President”

    Obama’s mother was white, and he was raised by his white grandparents. He has no African American ancestry.

    “The only video I’ve seen more deceptive and manipulative than that one was a poorly diced and spliced concoction created out of statements by Obama to “prove” he admitted to being a Muslim.”

    His father was an African Muslim (his name is Arabic), and his step-father was an Indonesian Muslim. Obama attended Muslim schools for four years when he lived in Indonesia with his mother. He is also on record saying that the Muslim call to prayer is “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.” (http://select.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/opinion/06kristof.html?_r=2&pagewanted=print&amp😉 He made a reference to “my Muslim faith” in an interview with George Stephanopoulos before he was elected the first time, and Stephanopoulos quickly corrected him, saying “your Christian faith.” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M) Was that just a slip of the tongue?

    When Philip Haney, the recent whistleblower from the Department of Homeland Security (Phil was one of the founding members of DHS, and I’ve met him) is asked whether or not Obama is a Muslim, as he often is, he cites the movie “Godfather II”, in which Michael Corleone announces a new venture. However, Michael tells Tom Hagan (who was of Irish descent and informally adopted by the Godfather), the family’s consigliere and therefore involved in ALL the decision-making up to that point, that he will have no involvement in the new project, because “you’re not part of the family.” Phil asks, “But was Tom Hagan part of the Mafia?”

    I agree with Joel Richardson that Obama is “an anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic Marxist with massive Islamic sympathies.” Obama’s policies and actions certainly support that assessment. He has Muslim Brotherhood advisors who are responsible for purging any reference to Islam and jihad in FBI training manuals, for example. Obama has an obvious affinity for Islam. Is Obama a Muslim? I don’t know, but it should not be difficult to see how many people, including non-Christians, would come to that conclusion.

  45. 46 Marleen
    October 13, 2016 at 2:05 am

    At first, I thought Jeanne had forgotten her earlier question. But then I noticed she had been talking to you and not me, so I guessed she was confused as to why I said what I said. Now I don’t understand how she thinks she’s getting any information with which to make a relevant voting decision and tell/imply other people they’re wrong; going to Bible studies doesn’t give you facts about current events and candidates. But maybe she just decided not to vote because it’s all such a mess.

    I get that.

    http://splitsider.com/2016/08/jordan-klepper-quizzes-trump-supporters-with-the-extreme-vetting-ideology-test-on-the-daily-show/
    https://www.queerty.com/five-times-you-totally-hated-yourself-for-agreeing-with-the-awful-donald-trump-20160424
    http://www.towleroad.com/2016/07/gays-for-trump/
    http://www.towleroad.com/2016/07/peter-thiel/
    http://www.salon.com/2016/07/20/inside_milos_gays_for_trump_virulently_anti_islam_party_at_the_rnc/
    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/right-wing-pastor-secular-humanist-caliphate-militant-homofascism-taking-over-america/

    We went so “anti-communism” (which manifests most as justification of greed and callousness) that Republicans and Evangelicals (who definitely spread something) have pushed libertarian ideas more and more — which is what can be seen in the towleroad and salon articles I’ve included (and which the “rightwing” guy doesn’t realize he helps promote by hanging out on the right).

    WHAT IS “THE SIN OF SODOM?” Find it in the Bible — not right-wing politics.

  46. 47 Marleen
    October 13, 2016 at 2:32 am

    http://www.towleroad.com/2016/10/billy-bush-tape/
    Seth says requirements for third hour of talk show (NBC)
    higher than that of Republican nominee for president.

    Quote: On Late Night, Seth Meyers took a closer look at the Donald Trump and Billy Bush tape in which Trump brags [on a bus during an Access Hollywood shoot] about assaulting women …

    Meyers made three astute observations about the state of the race.

    ….

    The second was about the Bush family:

    “Billy Bush, who somehow passed Jeb for ‘Worst Performing Bush of 2016’.”

    And the third was about American culture:

    “It should be noted NBC suspended Billy Bush from the TODAY show for his words on this tape, which means there is currently a higher standard for host of the third hour of the TODAY show than there is for Republican nominee for president.”

  47. October 13, 2016 at 7:20 am

    Jeanne, and I suppose Obama wasn’t born in the USA either?

    While you choose to be blinded by extreme propaganda your understanding of everything will be distorted.

    I notice youR comment on Bill’s blog about my most recent article (“A Lesson in Deception and Manipulation”) where you and others clearly avoid the very clear fact that the video in question; the video Bill referenced on his blog is a total lie. Instead you make excuses and add other accusations against Hilary – based on what? Is your basis for those accusations a reputable (NOT!) as the video examined.

    If that IS THE American evangelical attitude to truth (and THE Truth) the situation is far worse than I could have imagined and I therefore have no doubt at all why the US is in such a woeful political situation. The salt has lost its savour.

  48. October 13, 2016 at 7:22 am

    “It should be noted NBC suspended Billy Bush from the TODAY show for his words on this tape, which means there is currently a higher standard for host of the third hour of the TODAY show than there is for Republican nominee for president.”

    An astute observation – but let me amend it slightly “..which means there is currently a higher standard for host of the third hour of the TODAY show than there is for the evangelical preference of nominee for president”.

  49. October 13, 2016 at 7:28 am

    WHAT IS “THE SIN OF SODOM?” Find it in the Bible

    Yes – it’s perhaps unfortunate that the term sodomy has been applied only to homosexual activity instead of being applied to the REAL reason that Sodom was destroyed.
    The homosexuality was a symptom of a greater evil within that city.

  50. October 13, 2016 at 8:43 am

    I don’t understand how she thinks she’s getting any information with which to make a relevant voting decision and tell/imply other people they’re wrong; going to Bible studies doesn’t give you facts about current events and candidates.

    That’s what I thought too.
    I was commenting on sources of information that people are relying on to form their opinions of the political candidates – the sites listed by Jeanne didn’t come into that category.

    Maybe the big difference I see about the claims being made about the candidates, is that impressions of Trump can be formed from what can be seen in the open. However the majority of claims about Clinton come from specifically anti-Clinton sites, such as the one I mention in my deception and Manipulation post. Sites that manufacture their own “facts” to support their case.

  51. 52 Jeanne T.
    October 13, 2016 at 9:44 am

    “I don’t understand how she thinks she’s getting any information with which to make a relevant voting decision and tell/imply other people they’re wrong; going to Bible studies doesn’t give you facts about current events and candidates.”

    Marlene: Regarding the sites I posted, they should give you an idea of where I am coming from theologically. They were intended to give you some idea of what I believe regarding eschatology, not how I vote. How I vote is not public property. But I must disagree with you about your comments regarding current events and candidates. Our study of the Scriptures helps us to discern truth, and our information about candidates’ beliefs should be based on the truth of Scripture, not political websites.

    “Jeanne, and I suppose Obama wasn’t born in the USA either?”

    Onesimus: I don’t understand your question. Can you please clarify? I haven’t seen any credible evidence to suggest that Obama was not born in the U.S. Have you?

    I have also viewed the video in question, and I commented on this at Bill’s blog.

  52. October 13, 2016 at 10:01 am

    Onesimus: I don’t understand your question. Can you please clarify? I haven’t seen any credible evidence to suggest that Obama was not born in the U.S. Have you?

    No I haven’t. And that’s the point. Denying that Obama is American born has been a major claim of by people like Trump for years, until he very recently backtracked and tried to blame to blame Hillary for starting the so-called “birther movement”.

    Yes I saw your comment on Bill’s blog. I still get emails of comments on the couple of threads I contributed to. And you failed to address the actual issue – the facts of what are actually said on the video- and you merely project your own suppositions about what Hillary probably meant.

    You ignore the facts about the blatant falsifying.

    The video makers lied. They are liars and deceivers. By their own words and actions they condemn themselves. Are they the kind of people you want to inform your views?
    Is a lying message the kind of thing Bill Randle should be relying on to support his own claims?

  53. October 13, 2016 at 10:10 am

    Jeanne, I’ve also seen your comment thanking Bill for his “gracious and Christ-like responses to everyone who posts” on his blog.

    It’s just sad that the graciousness and Christ-likeness doesn’t always extend to the actual content of his blog.
    There was nothing Christlike or gracious about the content of the lying video I’ve examined in my article. Such things only bring contempt upon the name of the Lord.

  54. 55 Jeanne T.
    October 13, 2016 at 10:28 am

    Thanks for your response, Onesimus. Cheers! 🙂

  55. October 13, 2016 at 10:34 am

    It’s a pleasure Jeanne. 🙂

  56. October 13, 2016 at 11:07 am

    HI Jeanne, I can only hope you read here again to consider this.

    Putting aside the political rhetoric and what you think of Hillary Clinton – assess the video itself. Are the actual claims made on that video really supported by what they show of Clinton? Is the video truthful in what it portrays and attributes to her?

    Put aside what interpretation YOU may put on her statement about “deep seated cultural codes, religious beliefs and structural biases have to be changed” and ask yourself whether the video makers being truthful in what they report?

    Does Clinton, as the presenter insists, say “that the change of Christian beliefs is the unfinished business of the 20th Century?”

    Does Clinton say anything like: ” CHRISTIANS IN AMERICA MUST DENY THEIR FAITH IN CHRISTIANITY” or “Kneel and deny your Christian faith” as attributed to her the captions over the story?

    Are you willing to answer those questions to yourself honestly? Are you willing to be accountable to the Lord for your answer?

  57. 58 Marleen
    October 13, 2016 at 11:14 am

    1) Jeanne, my 2:05 wasn’t in response to your 1:16. A bunch of posts all got posted at once. (Just stating a fact here in case there was any mix up there.)

    2) As for any attempt to interact with you, I didn’t ask you to say who you would vote for (or if you would vote). But you had quoted about being informed on candidates (I know that’s not an exact quote but similar). Of course reading the Bible helps inform us, but the candidates aren’t in the Bible. They are current individuals with behaviors to witness or be informed on as best as possible.

  58. 59 Jeanne T.
    October 13, 2016 at 12:32 pm

    Thanks for your response, Marlene. (FYI, there was no “mix-up”.)

    This is my last post at this blog.

  59. October 13, 2016 at 12:46 pm

    thanks for visiting Jeanne.
    I hope you take time to consider the suggestion I made earlier.

    And something else for all to consider:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/12/donald-trump-women-new-sexual-harassment-stories

    The New York Times published the story of two women who said that Trump “touched them inappropriately”.

    Jessica Leeds, 74, said that, more than three decades ago when she was a traveling businesswoman, she sat next to Trump in the first-class cabin of a New York-bound flight. The two had never met.

    About 45 minutes after takeoff, Trump lifted the armrest she said, grabbed her breasts and tried to put his hand up her skirt. Leeds told the Times that “he was like an octopus. His hands were everywhere.”

    Not long ago another celebrity (Rolf Harris. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27503268) was described as being like an octopus for similar reasons.

    One of these celebrities is currently serving five years in a British jail. The other is vying for the US Presidency, apparently the evangelical communities favourite candidate.

  60. 61 Marleen
    October 13, 2016 at 1:34 pm

    Tim, do you remember Pam/Pamela Gellar, the woman involved in promoting the provocative show that was supposed to be disrespectful and poke at Muslims and cause a shooting? She was the woman in the colorful sequins top at the “Gays for Trump” party.

    The people in the community of Orlando [which was referenced at some point in the story at Cleveland — two accounts, one with more videos than the other, from the so-called party] didn’t respond the way the party people did. In Orlando, people pulled together after the shooting at the club… Muslims, gay people, straight people, young and older, even both Rs and Ds, etc. (except the Trump types). Notice that some of the people at the party aren’t aware, or don’t want to be, and some are totally exploiting the opportunity for a wedge. Plus, the context of Thiel (not to mention the sponsorship of the Breitbart ilk) means that what is envisioned is an especially degrading form of relationship:

    …. the Property and Freedom Society is a frankly terrifying place to find one of the most important men in Silicon Valley. And Thiel’s importance is difficult to overstate. He is, among many other things, the co-founder of PayPal, the original Facebook angel investor, and the founder of a massive, super-secretive surveillance firm called Palantir, which helps the government sift through petabytes of raw data in search of terrorists (or whatever). He is also a member of the very small group of people midwifing humanity’s rebirth as a race of immortal cyborgs. He’s probably the most successful enemy of the free American press. And he’s a Trump delegate.

    As the SPLC details in its report, the gatherings of the Property and Freedom Society are salons for white supremacists and their fellow travelers, and for libertarian extremists whose ideology creeps right up to crypto-Nazism. These are not the fun, pot-smoking libertarians with the ponytails. These are paleo-libertarians, so far to the right they think Milton Friedman’s a socialist. They long for the freedom to discriminate at will, for reasons racial, religious, aesthetic or capricious. They yearn for the abolition of the state, and the supreme and eternal reign of whoever’s smart, strong, rich, or talented enough to hoard all the resources when it’s gone. ….

    This would affect not only gay relationships (or interactions, as the case may be), but all.

  61. 62 Marleen
    October 13, 2016 at 1:44 pm

    Thiel isn’t merely tolerant of kooky and unpleasant ideas. He’s an incubator and promulgator of kooky and unpleasant ideas. In an essay in 2009, Thiel argued that democracy and capitalism are “incompatible,” and have been ever since women got the vote. (It’s a wonder that Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook’s COO and author of the privileged-feminist manifesto Lean In, didn’t deem Thiel incompatible with the company.) Thiel is an outspoken proponent of the notion that democracy is antithetical to true … To escape our crumbling matriarchy, Thiel has funded a so-far unsuccessful effort to build new, libertarian nations on artificial islands in international waters. The media has tended to paint the venture as romantic or quixotic, but one shudders to imagine what Hoppe would do with an island of his own.

    At the PFC conference in September, Thiel will give a speech titled “In Praise of Free Market Monopoly.” Other speakers include a German author, Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof, who will hold forth on “the many fathers of World War II.” Schultze-Rhonhof is a leading proponent of the theory, popular with Holocaust denialists and neo-Nazis, that the Allies, not Hitler, provoked WWII. Also onstage will be Heiner Rindermann, who is deeply concerned that brown immigrants with low IQs will bring about the downfall of European society.

  62. 63 Marleen
    October 13, 2016 at 1:50 pm

    Peter Thiel: Billionaire RNC Speaker, Gay Man, and Guest of Neo-Fascist

    by Brandon Thorp and Penn Bullock
    July 21, 2016 | 9:02am

    [What I quoted from was the above named article.]

  63. October 13, 2016 at 2:01 pm

    The media has tended to paint the venture as romantic or quixotic, but one shudders to imagine what Hoppe would do with an island of his own.

    This sounds very similar to what happened with Trump – for so long his unconventional and politically incorrect bluster was painted as somewhat amusing, and not taken seriously. Now look were he is and where he’s potentially heading: getting MORE than an “island of his own”, instead getting a powerful nation with nuclear arms at his disposal.

  64. 65 Marleen
    October 13, 2016 at 2:51 pm

    Yeah, were in a precarious position. I don’t think it will happen, but we’re not done yet.

  65. October 13, 2016 at 3:02 pm

    If only we could see what the resulting situation would be like if Trump won. I suspect many of his current supporters would regret backing him; but hopefully we’ll never get to know for sure because I suspect the outcome would be worse than could be imagined (Rodrigo Duterte with nukes).

    However, with a Clinton win, no matter what kind for president she makes (excellent, good, indifferent or lousy) , she’ll always be the devil in Presidential form to the haters; just as Obama has been for the past 8 years.

  66. 67 Marleen
    October 13, 2016 at 4:08 pm

    I accidentally cut out a word in what I quoted above: Thiel is an outspoken
    proponent of the notion that democracy is antithetical to true freedom.

    “Freedom and property” — in his/their estimation, redundancy.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Thank you for the link to the similar story in the U.K.

  67. October 14, 2016 at 12:53 am

    Agreed, Tim. The “right” (unfortunately including a majority of American Christians) will no doubt treat a Hilary presidency exactly as they’ve treated the Obama presidency.

    I’m not looking forward to the outpouring of continuous hate, should she be elected. But the greater problem is that the haters effectually refuse to take part in our nation and society. No nation or society can function in those conditions.

    Our “rightist” Congress once formally shut-down government. While in session, they have delighted in preventing government from functioning normally, to show their opposition to Obama: which they consider is the political mood of their constituents. (Not surprisingly, during this election season, I’ve heard at least one campaigning “rightist” Congressman claim Obama and Clinton were to blame for Congress’ inability to “do anything to solve America’s problems.” LOL.)

    Obviously much of the “right” (sadly, including many Christians) has been manipulated to hate Obama, and now Clinton. No doubt the willingly-duped will be easily persuaded to hate whoever is the manipulators’ next “enemy.” It’s the easiest thing in the world to manipulate those willing to believe the real enemies are flesh-and-blood, contrary scripture.

    But the spirit that underlies all these problems is rebelliousness. I am absolutely convinced that the divisive oppositional hatred our society is suffering is the spiritual fruit of the Reagan doctrine that “government is the PROBLEM.”

  68. 69 Marleen
    October 14, 2016 at 7:02 am

    Yikes. A Trump campaign fundraiser tweeted under the name of Eric Trump, today, in the spirit of repealing the 19th Amendment (that women can as opposed to cannot vote), claimed there is “an incredible Donald Trump surge happening across the nation” with an animated map graphic. It’s been deleted.

  69. 70 Marleen
    October 18, 2016 at 6:08 am

    Quick note on a comment by Jeanne: Very many of the slave’s daddy’s were white. This is a reason that a lot of African-Americans (blacks) have part white DNA. I guess those guys had great family values. (We should get back to our origins, I suppose.) Obama is African-American because he is American.

  70. 71 Marleen
    October 18, 2016 at 6:23 am

    Government being “the problem” was part of a campaign slogan for Reagan (it worked — for winning the race — but was somewhat reckless). He didn’t really think that way in an ultimate sense. His “fans” or political exploiters have believed it, though. Or, the party has just run with it. Good post.

  71. October 18, 2016 at 8:05 am

    American born of an African father and American mother – sounds African American to me!

  72. 73 Marleen
    October 18, 2016 at 10:27 am

    Yes!

    And in case I wasn’t very clear for anyone else reading (this very long conversation), I was responding to someone quoting you and then (her) taking issue with a simple term… as I will quote below.

    She said (quoting Onesimus/Tim), “the first black President”

    Obama’s mother was white, and he was raised by his white grandparents. He has no African American ancestry.

    And the following (corrected for spelling) is my response to that supposed disqualification.

    Very many of the slave’s daddies were white. This is a reason that a lot of African-Americans (blacks) have part white DNA. I guess those guys had great family values. (We should get back to our origins, I suppose.) Obama is African-American because he is American.

  73. October 18, 2016 at 11:27 am

    I suspect the fact that he is African-American is (sadly) a major reason for so much of the 8 year Obama-hatred campaign, even among many “evangelicals”.


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