20
Jun
14

You Are Being Warned


The following was posted in the comments section of my post “Clearly Some Don’t Want To Understand”.

[https://onesimusfiles.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/clearly-some-dont-want-to-understand/]

 

Just in case it’s overlooked, being in such an out of the way place, I’ll post the following statement, (made against me) so people can consider its warning. Although after the warning I will point out the serious inaccuracy near the beginning.

 

FOLKS WHO ARE READING THIS “Please wake up. This man basically with one or two days or weeks of exceptions, hasn’t even attended church for 25 years and he’s trying to be your Christian spiritual guide. This man will lead you right into the abyss if you don’t smarten up and see the deception. Just read the mocking self-righteous tone he exhibits in all his writings. If any of you readers have actually stopped attending church because of the man’s writings, I strongly implore you to delete this man’s blog from your bookmarks immediately, and find yourself a good Christian church and join it and begin worshipping the Lord in a church setting and fellowshipping A.S.A.P!! As your final proof, just review the remarks he makes, both on this blog, and follow the link to Derek Leman’s blog at the top of this page and read the comments he made there. And finally, let this man’s final remarks to my comments here be your guide as to whether he is a real Christian or not. God be with you.

 

 

Serious inaccuracy:

 

It is claimed that I have not “attended church” for 25 years apart from “one or two days or weeks of exceptions”. Considering that for 15 of those years I was going through a “spiritual crisis” a time when I was struggling with extreme doubt, maybe we can reduce that to 10 years.

 

And could we please take into account the time when my faith was starting to be restored and I spent months checking out churches in my local area, visiting local ministers followed by months of attending home fellowship meetings? And then I moved to a new town and started the minister-meeting process again.

 

And what about the six months at the charismatic fellowship that ended when the fellowship’s devotion to the charismania of the TACF became prominent (TAFC is the church responsible for the “Toronto Blessing”)? And the year and a half at the traditional denominational church that ended when their Calvinist leanings were pushed more to the fore?

 

And where ought I have gone next? The Pentecostal church influenced by word of faith and the NAR? (NAR – Peter Wagner’s New Apostolic Reformation) Or the new group in town that my research indicates have a cult-like nature? Or maybe for appearance-sake I should just turn up at the High Anglican or Roman Catholic churches or one of the remaining denominational groups that meet for services for one hour a week? I suppose it all depends on what one considers to be a real church and what is actually Christian fellowship.

 

Yes, in recent years I have spent far more time away from institutional churches than I’ve spent in them, but FAR more than the claimed “one or two days or weeks”. And I’ve spent more time interacting with other believers outside of the bricks and mortar than I was able to while attending Sunday services.

 

If there was a suitable Christian group around here I’d be happy to join with them. If you are blessed to be part of a thriving and nurturing fellowship focused on Jesus – thank God for it.

My situation hasn’t been hidden from readers of this blog or the forums where I’ve contributed, but if my lack of “church” attendance offends any reader of this blog, they are free to shun me.

 

As for the rest of the claims made in the above warning, I invite you to read more of the comments section at the above link so you can make a more informed judgement of the accusations being made.

 

Then you can decide whether:

1)     I’m trying to be your spiritual guide.

2)     I’m leading anyone into the abyss,

3)     I’m a deceiver.

4)     I’ve exhibited a mocking self-righteous tone

5)     I’ve encouraged others to stop attending “church”.

 

And the countless other claims being made by “endtimedelusion”.

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14 Responses to “You Are Being Warned”


  1. June 21, 2014 at 6:22 am

    Yes, but you’re still as we speak not a member of a church, that being the entire point. People following you might get the idea that its OK for them to not have church membership as well. You are not “telling’ anyone to quit church, but a lot of leadership is done by example. A lot of Christians follow by the example set by those they read.

  2. June 22, 2014 at 2:49 am

    Well, I don’t know all the ins and outs of the exchanges referenced here. But I’ll put in a general two cents’ worth.

    There are undeniably times God says, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues…” (Revelation 18). The question is KNOWING that time: and nobody CAN know it except by hearing what God speaks. But Jesus confirms and comforts in that situation, that “My sheep hear My voice, and follow me.”

    There’s plenty of evidence that the visible Church (In Australia as in the U.S.) is far astray, and NOT following Jesus. It’s prima facie evidence this COULD be a time God might call His Own OUT of such a “Church.” It’s hardly a manifestation of apostasy to absent oneself from a wayward “Church,” when that is what Jesus is saying.

    In my personal situation, He’s not saying saying that to me…yet. I know others in whose personal situations He IS saying “Come out of her.” Knowing their walk, I’m fully convinced they are hearing Jesus’ voice to them. They do not, and no one can wish they should, fail to obey Him.

    Thanks for the many insights you’ve shared over the years, Tim, in the Spirit, in scripture, You’ve challenged me (and not me only) to seek the Spirit’s wisdom, to dig deep in scripture, and to listen intently for Jesus’ voice.

    Blessings, In Jesus,

    Steve

  3. June 23, 2014 at 8:35 am

    No I am not a member of A church, I am a member of THE church, the body of Christ.
    I am a member of His church in every community of which I’m a part. I can have fellowship with any true believer within those communities and don’t feel the need (conscious or otherwise) to avoid other believers merely because they don’t belong to my particular “church” group.

  4. June 23, 2014 at 8:39 am

    Thanks Steve, as I’ve mentioned several times on this blog and elsewhere, I’ve tried time and again to become part of “a church”, but the doors have always closed.

  5. June 24, 2014 at 2:35 am

    Yes, I’d agree with you that being part of a fellowship of believers, worshipping “in Spirit and in truth,” is God’s intent for each of us: the “normative” Christian life (“normative” understood as God’s will on earth, as it is in heaven). And I know you’ve seriously tried to find where He wants you to be.

    Knowing your heart is open to His leading, I have to believe He’ll locate you in the right place, in His timing: or bless you in being separate. It’s very much analogous, I think, to marriage, God’s will for most of us. Yet He gives the charismata of singleness to some: and blesses them in walking in it.

    Having been in some fellowships who worship Him as entirely pleases Him, I VERY much wish that for you, myself, and for all believers ! I’m not in that situation currently, though it’s where I know He wants me for now. There are many good hearts for Him in the congregation, who WANT to please and worship Him. The usual theological and political garbage seems the impediment. If I understand His purpose, I’m there to simply BE different in dependence on Him and fellowship with Him.

    THAT is a discipline I’m learning, slowly and imperfectly. But even the little I “get” so far has glorified God. People notice anyone different: and a few (the ones whose hearts He chooses to move on) begin asking why.

    Having read many of your posts over the years, I’ve benefitted from what you have learned/are learning where He’s placed you for this time. Indeed, I’d say I’ve fellowshipped with you in the Spirit’s leading. To my perception, that is the manifestation of our Father glorifying Himself. Praise Him !

    In Jesus, Steve

  6. June 30, 2014 at 12:41 pm

    I would not take his words to heart, Onesimus. His own words reveals a religious spirit that is currently affecting him. He can not see anything else because of it. You are not debating with him, you are arguing against a DEMON. And demons are not worth our time to sit and argue with, for they will NEVER come to Christ. Instead, pray that this man will one day be set free and have his demons cast out in Jesus name.

    Jesus has told me several times now, through the Spirit of Truth, that YOU ARE HIS.
    Your words have not brought me pain, or a pulling away from Christ.
    Indeed, they have brought me back to Him, and into His arms.
    You are a part of my on line support group, and a brother in Christ that I value.

    We need to be very discerning in these end times. So many many churches now are filled to the brim with demons. Why would any believer want to go there and catch a demon for themselves? Like http://www.demonbuster.com says on their web site: If the church you are attending does not cast out demons in Jesus name, then pack your bags and stay home…

    Blessings to you dear brother,
    C. Dunamis

  7. June 30, 2014 at 2:40 pm

    Hi C. Dunamis,
    I’m pleased to hear that my blog has been helpful to you.

    As I read on another blog this morning: “the more you follow what the Word of God REALLY says, the more you will find yourself opposed by the mainstream church.”

    I wish that statement wasn’t true, but sadly it is. Most churches like to “interpret” scripture for their members, keeping them dependent on their religious system, instead of encouraging them to find out what scripture is ACTUALLY saying.

    People reading and understanding scripture for themselves is not in the interests of religious organisations.
    I suspect “endtimedelusion” is sincere in his belief and I wouldn’t directly credit his argument and objections to a demon. He is merely arguing from a point of view that has probably been instilled into him as part of a chain of teaching and tradition that quite likely has had demonic input somewhere along the way. Tradition and false teaching can cause blindness to the truth in those who adopt them.

    A love of the truth is one of the most important things we need. But often the truth isn’t comfortable because it requires change to our lives – a change of our beliefs and a change of our behaviour. One of the required changes is to shed our dependence on men’s teachings and to take up the responsibility of searching the scriptures for ourselves: 1) to find for ourselves what scripture is REALLY saying and 2) to test all teachings with scripture. If a teaching ignores the “surface” meaning of scripture and heads straight for “deeper” truths, you can be certain that there’s a problem with that teaching.

    It is amazing how many commonly accepted teachings have very little in common with what scripture says.

  8. July 23, 2014 at 9:44 am

    Really? “Come out of her” is a scriptural statement advocating all Christians make a “solo” Christian walk i.e, lack of formal church membership, if they feel put off by the sampling of churches they have attended in the past? Really? Lack of church membership being justified, and such comments being applauded, for suggesting that we can brush off church membership by merely concluding that “so many of them are filled with demons why would we want to go there anyhow?” The ones suggesting a demonic spirit on my part should have a good look at who would be applauding the “solo” Christian walk. Is it Christ or Satan who would rise out of his chair and give a standing ovation to the new “solo Christian walk” being advocated here, otherwise known as the doctrine of: “all men are evil and I will remove myself from their company ecclesiastically.”

    There are actually souls here who think Jesus would speak to us in this fashion if he were physically here now: “Yes, my dear, I’m so glad you avoid physical attendance at any of my churches. I’ve let them all go to seed anyhow, and there’re all basically worthless now. Walk with me in whatever fashion you choose. Want to stay home? By all means, stay home. After all, its you I want to please. Don’t let the silly arguments about membership in the church stop you from walking any which way you choose. I left my church to Peter, I didn’t foresee than the evil in men’s hearts would erode the very foundations of what I left to Peter so many years ago. Hey, don’t worry about 2 thousand years ago. Do what moves you now. Live in the moment. Throw away all your books on doctrine and theology. All wicked, every one. Besides, what did those old geezer theologians know about me anyway? You can just open your bibles and in an instant all theology disappears except what appeals to you in your individual interpretation of the moment. See, now, wasn’t that easy? Who am I to set up the rules, anyhow? Who was I to even TRY to have the power of the Spirit oversee the teaching of doctrine and the preaching of sermons in my church? What was I thinking? Just use the Holy Spirit for physical manifestations, physical healings, and foretelling the future, and eye candy like that; don’t worry about doctrine.”

    And some of you people think this “you can make church whatever you want it to be” movement is the God-focused path which avoids all man-centered thinking?

    There is a clear and obvious teaching throughout a great deal of the N.T., which despite the weak arguments I have read against it, clearly set out what it is all about to be a member of the body of Christ. Paul used the analogy of the parts of the body, each one with different gifts, but none being more important than another, and none existing without the other. Being a member of the body of which Christ is the head is not something we can confer upon ourselves, simply by self-righteously claiming “membership in the spiritual body of Christ” based on terms and conditions invented by our imaginations, simply because we apply the term “spirit led” to our actions.

    JD Ellis

  9. July 23, 2014 at 10:05 am

    Personally I wouldn’t take the biblical admonition to “Come out of her” as referring to coming out of a “church”, no more than I would identify any religious organisation, structure or institution as being “the church”. But I know many who understand “come out of her” to mean that.

    I have no interest in membership of any man-made religious organisation that has adopted identification as “the church”. I am more than happy to be a member of the body of Christ. As a member of that body I would never be a “solo” Christian, unlike my experience in the churches I “joined” in the past who were quick to abandon me when I stopped attending their organised meetings; even when I tried to keep in fellowship with them outside of those meetings. It was clear that “church” relationships are conditional upon church attendance.

    Ironically I DID receive visits from some of the church members AFTER they had also later left those fellowships, to find out if my reason for leaving was the same as theirs.

    It is clear that the majority of “churches” are not Jesus’s churches, they have nothing at all to do with His body and they give absolutely no room for each part of Christ’s body to fulfil its ministry role to others. All “ministry” is left as the domain of one “minister” whose qualifications are the result of fulfilling denominational academic requirements rather than any of the biblical standards established for eldership.

    I would be extremely willing to become part of a fellowship that meets regularly. I’d like nothing more than to meet day to day from house to house, with other believers, but the majority of professing Christians aren’t interested in any kind of genuine relationship, they are satisfied with an hour a week attending a religious meeting where they merely need to respond at predetermined times in a predetermined way.

    I’d even be very happy to meet weekly for only an hour with other believers IF it was for genuine fellowhsip and not merely religious ritual and if it wasn’t dominated by a minster intent on promoting denominational theology above genuine body ministry. But its very difficult to find others interested in that kind of meeting, especially if you are not part of their “church”.

  10. July 23, 2014 at 11:22 am

    So you believe the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, as founded through Christ’s apostle Peter, since you state it is not any institution, is now, as we speak, entirely a spiritualized congregation of souls? Wow.

  11. July 23, 2014 at 11:38 am

    I believe the church consists of all followers of the Lord Jesus and it should be possible to have fellowship with any true believer I come into contact with.

    On a more local scale, the church in each town or city consists of all followers of Jesus within that town or city and they should be able and willing to fellowship with the other believers within that local church.

    The church is NOT a group of people who isolate themselves in a religious building (usually once a week) away from others so they can listen to a man preach the theology he was taught at his denomination’s seminary.
    Unfortunately that isolation often extends to the rest of week when any thought of Jesus is cast aside until the next weekly “church” meeting. And usually they find it best to avoid anyoone who WOULD speak of Jesus if they aren’t a member of the same “church”.

    I see that you haven’t been able to participate in my poll yet.

  12. July 23, 2014 at 3:05 pm

    As to your poll, I believe in sound doctrine, so there would have to be a “none of the above” choice, or a choice number 6 which stated: “attend a church with sound biblical teaching and preaching” and that would be my selection. You don’t believe in any doctrine at all, because anything which has been filtered through the mind of a human being is rejected by you. Sadly for you and those with your belief system, ALL doctrine has been filtered through the mind of a human being, including the things you teach to others, which have been filtered through YOUR mind and have been salted with your preconceptions.

    Actually to be fair, you do not reject the teachings of ALL men. You are openly endorsing the teachings of David Pawson. I have nothing for or against David Pawson, but this certainly bangs a loud gong of inconsistency when you hold so fast to a principle that we are to exegete scripture entirely without influence of any man, and at the same time speak in approving words about how the man David Pawson exegetes scripture. So I guess your message to others is: ‘don’t follow the biblical interpretations of any man, except of course if its a man who I personally endorse.”

    I really am searching the scriptures diligently to find the verses that state flatly and clearly that we are to reject all preaching and teaching done by men. All I can find are the verses that state God set up his church specifically for the preaching and teaching of his word through Spirit-led Christian men as his divinely ordained path to both Christian fellowship, and even more fundamentally, perseverance in salvation and living the Godly life itself. And the part about the church today being a spiritualized concept rather than a concrete physical “house of God” ? Where is that taught?

    Clearly outlined in scripture and representing a foreshadowing of the N.T. church in the O.T., were the tabernacle and temple, clearly physical places where God dwelled, (not withstanding that God is omnipresent, they were the special abode of God.) I am plainly unable to see where the concept of the church, so physical in the past, has now been spiritualized and becomes in our culture: “hey, lets meet at Lenny’s apartment tonight and talk about God!” Please point me to the appropriate verses that explain this spiritualization.

    JD

  13. July 23, 2014 at 3:42 pm

    As to my poll I’ve listed the options available in my town.
    What would YOU do if you were a resident of my town? Would you criticise yourself as being a “solo” Christian and not attending “church”?

    I believe in the truth of scripture and doctrine consistent with scripture. I don’t believe in accepting the teaching of men without testing it against scripture. Sadly most churches encourage their “members” to see their ministers as specially gifted to tell everyone else what scripture “really” means because the so-called laity aren’t capable of understanding it for themselves.
    I don’t discourage people from listening to teaching. I encourage people to turn to scripture for themselves. If they don’t do the latter they will be more susceptible to accepting all manner of false teaching.

    I’ve never said I reject the teaching of all men. I reject the teaching of any man who tries to explain why scripture doesn’t really mean what it is clearly saying. I reject the teaching of men who turn scripture into a collection of allegories that need to be interpreted. I reject the teaching of men who only deal in proof texts. I reject the idea of studying scripture with a bible in one hand and a commentary in the other (or even worse using a “study bible”) where your understanding of scripture is immediately influenced by man’s ideas rather than the words on the page of scripture itself.

    David Pawson is a teacher who was a big help to me because of his insistence that everything he (or anyone else) teaches should be tested against scripture. He was a big help because I initially rejected a lot of his teaching because it contradicted what I believed – but later, through my own study I found more and more of his teaching was right and my own beliefs had been wrong.
    I have rarely heard David Pawson “exegete” scripture, especially in his more recent teachings. One of his strengths is that he rarely gives detailed bible references, but expects his hearers to search the scriptures for themselves, usually at the most he will refer to a book of the bible without chapter and verse, requiring scripture to be read with regard to context instead of proof text.

    You said: “Clearly outlined in scripture and representing a foreshadowing of the N.T. church in the O.T., were the tabernacle and temple, clearly physical places where God dwelled”
    The tabernacle and temple have nothing to do with any foreshadowing of church. They were places for sacrifice and places for priests to be the intermediaries between Israel and God. The temple and tabernacle were not weekly meeting places where Israel went to sing hymns and listen to a preacher.
    God does not live in temples built by the hands of men. While the early believers did initially meet at the temple (a public meeting place, not somewhere to attend an organised “service”) they also went from house to house daily.


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