Israel: refined not redefined

(This is a re-edited combining of two articles previously posted to my blogspot site.)


Several months ago I read the following question:

“Lets say hypothetically Israel the nation was wiped of the map. What would that mean to everyone?”

This is my answer to that question:

It should mean nothing to those who look to the truth of God’s word instead of to the world’s political map.

Israel as nation WAS wiped off the map for almost 2000 years – and was restored in 1948.

Their long absence from the map is one of the reasons for the creation of replacement theology. With Israel gone, the church needed to give meaning to the many scriptural promises made to Israel, so they assumed that the church had replaced Israel in God’s plans.

They overlooked the clearest meaning that Israel’s existence did not depend on man’s political “realities”, but on God’s promise. And HIS promises are kept and fulfilled according to HIS timing.

Even if the present day political nation of Israel is wiped off the map again, it would merely mean that Israel will be restored to the land again at some future point in accordance with the prophetic promises given by God.

We should not confuse today’s political nation of Israel with the Israel of God. God’s Israel takes into account people descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob no matter where they live. Despite the creation of the nation state, the majority of Israel remains in exile. One day that exile will end and God’s Israel will be totally returned to the land He promised them and they AS A COMPLETE NATION will recognise their Messiah, Jesus and will enter the new covenant through faith in Him.

Replacement theology (mentioned in the answer I gave above) has become a very popular viewpoint in the church today

Two of the proof texts favoured by the promoters of replacement theology are:

Rom 2: 28-29 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit


Rom 9: 6-8 For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

But to use those texts as support for their theology, the replacement promoters need to totally ignore the clear context of those texts.

Regarding Romans 2:28.

Go back several verses and you will read in verse 17:

“ Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God…”

It is specifically addressed to Jews who were trusting in their blood heritage and their relationship to the law. Paul was saying their heritage was not enough. It was not addressing gentiles and saying they have been made Jews through “circumcision of the heart”. It was addressing Jews, saying that MORE than heredity and law observance were needed to be part of God’s people. An inward change worked by the Spirit is necessary.

Regarding Romans 9.

When Paul writes “not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” He is referring to a faithful remnant of the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

The statement is excluding SOME of those descended from Israel – it is NOT a statement intended to include others who are not descended from Israel.

It is not a statement that redefines what Israel means. It is a statement that refines what Israel means.

It does not shift the identity of Israel from one group to another – it narrows down the identity of Israel from a wider inclusive ethnic group to a smaller specific section of that wider group.

It pinpoints the faithful remnant AMONG the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is not transferring attention outside of those descendants.

It’s like saying that not all born into a Christian family are Christian – only those who have their own faith in Jesus.

35 thoughts on “Israel: refined not redefined

  1. I can’t help but think what your saying sounds a little wacky. Israel is not suppost to be wiped out, the Jewish people are still Yahwah’s people, and Yeshua will stand on the mount of olives when he returns? In this case I don’t think you can seperate Politics and religon.

  2. Hi Michelle,

    I was not saying that Israel WILL be forced from the land again – I was answering someone who thought my faith should be shaken IF the present nation of Israel collapsed and the people scattered again.

    Israel remained Israel when they were not in the land.
    Israel is the people not the land nor a political identity, so they would not be “wiped out” even IF they were forced from the land again.

    God promised the land to Israel. They were outside of the land for almost 2000 years and did not cease to exist as Israel because of their absence from the land. God’s promise didn’t become nullified because they were absent from the land. His promise to return them to the land PERMANENTLY remains true.

    My confidence in that promise will not be shaken even if they leave the land again – it would just mean that His promise of permanent residence will be fulfilled at a future date.

    In fact it is clear that the promise has NOT yet been completely fulfilled. The people of Israel as a whole have not yet returned to the land but are still spread among the nations. And mostly they have not come to faith in their Messiah. Both of those are also features of the complete fulfillment of God’s promise to Israel related to their permanent possession of the land.

  3. John McTernan said he would throw his Bible away if Israel was ever scattered again……..

  4. And there lies the foolishness of basing faith on political circumstances rather than God’s revelation.
    God promised Israel would return to the land and never again be uprooted, but He didn’t promise it would happen in 1948.

  5. And therein also lies the indescribable danger that the church is in of falling away due to believing in this grievous false doctrine of dispensationalism with its fairy tale -pre-trib rapture.

    Make no mistake, setting up the church for falling away is a work that has been in progress ever since Scofield came out with his “book”.

    Israel has been set up along with the church.

    Israel for its unwillingness to wait for God to bring them back in the land and making it happen by the arm of flesh and the church for having itching ears.

  6. Israel could not have returned to the land solely on their own efforts by their own choice. If that was the case they would have done so LONG before 1948.

    They returned to the land by GOD’s choosing at a time of His choosing. But it is not the final and complete return prophesied in scripture. THAT return is of ALL Israel not only a part of Israel. THAT return will be accompanied by their acceptance of their Messiah and it is their recognition of HIM that makes their permanence in the land secure.

    Israel HAS to be in the land in some form PRIOR to that complete and final return. They have to be in the land at the revealing of the man of lawlessness. They will flee from him and two thirds of those in the land will die.

    I agree with you about Dispensationalism – it is a dangerous false theology setting people up for disillusionment (when the “rapture” doesn’t occur when they think it should). It also distorts the relationships God has with the church and with Israel. As well as creating different destinies for the church and believing Israel. (The church in “heaven” and Israel on earth”).

  7. I think Daniel describes the Zionist man-made retaking of Israel the best….

    Daniel 11:14 “Now in those times many shall rise up against the king of the South. Also, violent men of your people shall exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall.

    Zionists are violent

    Zionists exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision

    And lastly, the shall fail…

    Remember, Dispensationilism not only produced the pre-trib “rapture” but also seperated Israel and the church and taught that Christians shouldn’t preach the gospel to Jews because they will be saved anyway…..

    Paul dispels ANY notion of the seperation of Jews and Gentiles in the following verse.

    Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

    I agree that Israel has to be in the land but this doesn’t mean that it was right in Gods eyes.

    We see many times in the Old Testament where Israel disobeyed God and God used their disobedience for His glory in the end.

    The man-made return to the land is no different.

    God will be glorified regardless.

  8. There is a degree of irony in your statement “Zionists are violent” considering the very long history of violence against Israel and the Jews and the still current aim of many to drive them (Israel) into the sea.

    Considering these things it seems to me that Israel has mostly been very restrained in its response to the consistent violence against its people – in comparison to the reponse of other nations when faced by lesser violence against them. Also consider the treatment of Arab citizens living in Israel compared to the treatment Jews would receive in Arab countries – or even the treatment Palestinian Christians receive in Palestinian territory.

    Israel’s violent acts are also considerably restrained in comparison to those historical examples described in the Old Testament and those relating to the future describing God’s dealings with those who rise up against Israel.

    Clearly, as we’ve established earlier, the current state of Israel is not the complete fulfillment of God’s promised re-establishment of Israel in the land. That will occur when Jesus returns to rule over them. Until then they put their trust in military might AS EVERY OTHER NATION DOES – and their future suffering at the hands of “Antichrist” will put an end to their trust in themselves and their own might. That suffering will come to an end when they recognise the LORD is their strength and HE will put an end to it.

    Please note I deleted your link to the video of “orthodox jews” railing against “Zionism”. I don’t inform my theology from the opinions of Jesus-rejecting religions. My beliefs are based on scripture. The speakers in your video might reject the validity of an Israel returned to the land God promised them but scripture does NOT. Be aware that their beliefs are based on the interpretations of their chosen Rabbis, not on scripture itself.

    I note on that video their comments about the friendly Moslems and Moslem nations who always helped them in the past – such an attitude is the VERY thing that will lead to their acceptance of the beast/ man of lawlessness/ Antichrist in the final days before the return of the TRUE Christ, Israel’s Messiah, Jesus.

  9. Ones,

    Daniel was the one that stated violent men of his people would exalt THEMSELVES in fulfillment of the vision and would fall by attempting it…

    And what put them in harms way in reference to the antichrist is not those rabbis but rather their trusting in the arm of the flesh.

    There wouldn’t be enemies surrounding now them if it were not for Hagar…

    They wouldn’t have wandered in the wilderness for 40 years if they hadn’t listened to the spies and their evil report.

    They wouldn’t have been taken captive to Babylon if they would have listened to Jeremiah.

    And, they wouldn’t have been scattered into all nations if they would have received their Messiah.

    It is not due to those Rabbis that they receive the antichrist, it is due to their unbelief in the true Messiah.

    John 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

    And 2/3 of them will be killed due to being in the land that THEY decided to take back NOW instead of waiting for God to bring them back into it.

    And so you know that I don’t just “pick on” the Jews, many Christians will fall away and recieve the antichrist when they see Israel scattered AGAIN before the return of Jesus.


    Because of Dispensationalist Zionism.

    Please understand that I am not being haughty or think that I’m better than the Jews because I’m not.

    It will only be by Gods grace that I make it and will likely be “as though by fire”.

  10. (I have now restored and approved the link to video of the orthodox Jew that you posted yesterday).

    Not due to those Rabbis?

    If Jews listen to Rabbis who reject Jesus would they be better off?

    If WE listen to the word of Jesus-rejecting Rabbis and their opposition of zionism – would we be better informed about God’s plans for Israel? Or would it be better to be informed by scripture and what GOD has revealed?

    You write as if Zionism is a self-powered force acting independently of God’s purposes. That is NOT the case.
    And you continue to link Zionism with Dispensationalism as if that is the ONLY way people see validity in Israel being in the land. That is not the case. Zionist Dispensationalism MAY lead to people falling away – but it is not the only thing. ALL of man’s theology and opinion makes us vulnerable. People will fall away for seemingly MANY reasons, but in reality there will be one cause: they trust man’s ideas above God’s revelation.

    So, instead of looking for the philosophies of Jesus-rejecting men to find support for a personal viewpoint, it would be far wiser to stick with the revelation of scripture and be informed by that.

    GOD through scripture reveals the future of Israel. It is through hearing and sticking with God that we will avoid the kind of deception that will lead to falling away from the faith. Seeking man’s opinion takes us step by step away from the security found only in God.

  11. The point I was trying to make in posting the video of those rabbis is that they at least understnd Gods will for them being “in the land” much better than Jewish Zionists or Christian Zionists infected with dispensationalism.

    They disagree with secular Zionism “jumping the gun” as it were and possesing the land in their own strength by scheming behind the scenes since the 1800’s with the political powers and money changers of the world.

    There is a mountain of evidence the size of Mt. Everest that proves THAT is how they got back into the land.

    And God let them do it. God allows men to do alot of things that are wrong so that their backslidings will heal them in the end.

    As I said above, God will be glorified regardless.

    And for His sake alone.

  12. BTW, the reason I am so adamant about the things I wrote above is because I’ve been told in the past that I was in sin for not supporting Israel’s wars even to the point that it was suggested that if I wasn’t willing to join the IDF and fight for Israel with arms that I wasn’t being a good Christian and would be punished by God or sent to hell if I didn’t repent.

    Of course I know that you wouldn’t agree with that.

    Also, like I said above, John McTernan said if Israel is ever scattered again, you can throw your Bibles away.

    He posted that nonsense on his blog for all Christianity to see and be led astray by.

    I will no longer have any fellowship or have part with such men and will withstand their every breath.

    John Hagee is another one of the false teachers of these things and as far as Christians go, it’s dispensationalism hands down that is will be the cause for many to fall away.

    If I had to guess a percentage of Christians that will fall away from false teachings by name, dispensationalism will cause more than 75%.

  13. The current state of Israel is a vital part of God’s plan to return Israel permanently to the land He promised them.

    He promised a return to the land “not for their sake” – not because they deserve it – but for His name’s sake. Some time after their return to the land they will recognise their Messiah and enter the new covenant through faith in Him.

    No man or men – Jew or otherwise – would be capable of overcoming all of the odds to create the nation named Israel and sustain it against massive military hostility from its immediate neighbours over a period of 6 decades.

    God did not just “allow” the creation and maintenance of the state – He clearly involved Himself in it. To conclude otherwise is to give far too much glory to the capabilities of man.

    HE moved them back to the land despite their continued disobedience because they need to be in the land in preparation for end time events and their ultimate reconciliation with Him.

    HE moved them back into the land to continue His discipline of them – discipline that will lead them to trust in HIM for their security instead of their own might.

    HE has sustained them in the land for 6 decades, but man sees they have sustained themselves. Future events will make it clear WHO has been responsible for Israel’s continues security, that it has not been their own military cunning and strength.

  14. Just because some prominent men are deluded and teach delusion, it doesn’t change the REALITY of the situation.

    Those who follow these men are not in danger of of falling away. They have in likelihood ALREADY fallen away, following man’s lies instead of God’s revealled truth.

    However, rejecting the lies of these men only to adopt different but equally false ideas is not the answer.

  15. “No man or men – Jew or otherwise – would be capable of overcoming all of the odds to create the nation named Israel and sustain it against massive military hostility from its immediate neighbours over a period of 6 decades.”

    I disagree.

    I’ve studied the history of secular Zionism quite extensively and it was due to tireless scheming with political leaders and money changers that got them back into the land.

    Here is a good place to start although they don’t get into the backroom deals with men like the Rothchilds.

    But regardless of knowing the truth about such things doesn’t change the fact that God will use their disobedience for His golry and for His sake.

    It’s just like Joesphs brothers. What they meant for evil God will use for good.

  16. You give too much glory to the capabilities of man.

    It is GOD who determines nations and their borders. It is not man and man’s efforts.

    Instead of studying secular sources about secular political issues then looking for scripture to support your findings it would be more profitable to study scripture FIRST and interpret the world and events through what SCRIPTURE says rather than vice versa.

    How long before you suggest that WWII and the holocaust were part of this Jewish conspiracy to facilitate their zionist ambitions?
    The VERY claim I recently saw being promoted on another site.

  17. I don’t wish to follow anything false and I don’t believe in replacement theology, dual covenant theology of any other man made doctrines concerning Israel and the Gentiles.

    I simply understand how Israel got back into the land and it was indeed by fleshly scheming with the mammon of this world, not by praying to God.

  18. Do you think God is incapable of using men’s scheming to achieve HIS purpose? Do you think He can’t act according to His own will unless men pray?
    Do you ignore the fact that He promised to bring them back to the land BEFORE they turn to Him? That He would bring them back to Him AFTER their return to the land from among all the nations?

    Men can scheme as much as they like but they can not bring about the impossible merely through scheming.

    No one wants to knowingly follow anything false, but many do because for some reason they choose to trust the ideas of men instead of turning first to God and His revelation.

  19. Note I have not approved your last lengthy comment, at the end of which you express tentative acceptance of the idea that the Jew’s were behind WWII. Such ideas show the danger of the entanglements of Satan’s “conspiracy theory” snare.

  20. No, I believe God will use mans scheming for His purpose just like He did with Joseph and his brothers.

    And He can act any way He pleases when He please to do so and how He pleases to do so regardless of men praying.

    The issue is I will not worship Israel or the Jews, I will worship the God of Israel who is the King of the Jews.

    Why is it that many Christians treat secular Jews and the land of Israel with more respect than their own brethren in Christ?

    Deception due to over 100 years of false teaching has caused this warped respect of persons that we are forbidden by God to have.

    And I don’t see anything in Ezekiel 36 that mentions any pre-second coming gathering into the land by God.

    And how was it impossible to regather in the flesh? They have plenty of money and money buys lots of influence and favors. Even a nation if you stay at it for as long as they did. It’s called Chutzpa!

    But in the end please know that I love the Jewish people in spite of their scheming. 🙂

    Jesus said salvation is of the Jews and I believe Him.

  21. This has nothing to do with worshipping Isarel or the Jews. It is about the TRUTH regarding Israel and the Jews as revealed in scripture.

    Many “Christians” do have wrong attitudes towards the Jews and Israel – and those wrong attitudes cover widely diverse and even opposing views. Some are too favourable and others are plainly anti-semitic.
    That is why it is essential to rely on what GOD has revealed instead of giving in to man’s prejudices.

  22. But I’d really like to know your opinion on my question:

    Why is it that many Christians treat secular Jews and the land of Israel with more respect than their own brethren in Christ?

  23. I’m not sure they have already fallen away. I hope not.

    After all, you and I have both been influenced by the false doctrines of mainstream “Christianity” for many years and we came out of it.

    I think it takes a complete and willful rejection of the truth and stubborn unwillingness to hear it in any way to truly have fallen away.

    Jesus described it in John 6:66 as “they turned back and walked with Him no more”.

    I always wanted the truth from the church, it’s just that they were unwilling to feed it to me…

    They wouldn’t go in themselves and those who were and are trying, they hinder.

  24. Does it make any difference why some people are deluded? We could just as well ask why so many are so hostile to secular Jews and the land of Israel.

    Both are unhealthy attitutudes that need to be repalced by GOD’s attitude towards them – that attitude is revealed in scripture and not in the writings of prejudiced men (whichever extreme that prejudice takes).

    And what has been the greater problem throughout church history? Having a too positive attitude to the Jew or being too hostile?

  25. Like I said, I know you avoid talk of all conspiracies even though some do indeed exist.

    Just cut the last two sentances off then….

  26. If they continue to follow those men and the teachings of those men instead of seeking out the truth for themselves – then they have (or will) fall away – assuming they’ve even been in a postion to fall away from.

  27. It’s not a mere matter of deleting a sentence or two to sanitise a post – the issue is what informs what you are promoting. Informed by the willingness to consider that “zionists” were behind the funding of WWII.

  28. I don’t think I will be coming back here to post anymore.

    I really don’t appreciate having my freedom of speech hindered or blocked in any way except by beheading OR accused of things which are not true.

    It’s too bad really. It’s not like there is a whole lot of places to go on the internet for a Christian these days but I have little tolerance for being around the closed minded for very long.

    But be advised, the truth is not chained there in any way, even if it’s extremely painful or hard to accept.

  29. Ones,

    I am going to do an intensive study on every passage in scripture concerning Israels current state in relation to the Word alone as I want to know the truth of the matter.

    Please pray that the Lord will direct me according to His will and His truth alone.

    But regardless of how I think about the situation at this moment in time, I would still protect a Jew or a group of Jews in danger the way Corrie TenBoom did in WW2…..even if it costs me my life.

    And even if happens to be a rich Zionist that has caused Gentiles much misery via selfish money changing.

    And believe me, I know some.

  30. I do pray and hope that you will discover the truth.

    But that search will be severely hampered by the attitude expressed in the last part of your comment. As if “rich zionists” are the sole source of financial misery and are the only ones guilty of “selfish money changing”.
    Before you start your search you will need to repent of the clear bigotry expressed in those latter comments you made.

  31. UPS you have to realise that the rest of the world is not controlled by the American constitutional myth and its “right” of “freedom of speech”.

    And more importantly the Kingdom of God isn’t controlled by American constituational “rights” either.

    This blog is not a public forum available for any and every abberant view to be expressed. Comments are welcome but CONTINUED promotion of ideas and attitudes that I find questionable is NOT welcome.

  32. If you think it’s right before God to falsely accuse me publicly of anti-semitism and bigotry and refuse to allow me to tell the public that I have Jewish blood in my family AND Jewish friends, you are sadly mistaken.

    I forgive you but you seriously need to repent of your lording over me and refusing to allow me to defend myself.

    This isn’t about the Zionism issue, it’s about you treating a brother badly.

    My freedom of speech doesn’t come by the constitution or your permission, it comes from God.

  33. 1) I have not accused you of anti-Semitism. I have pointed out you are getting your “theology” from the wrong sources. You are searching for “Zionist” conspiracies instead of searching the scriptures for God’s view.
    2) Whether or not you have “Jewish blood” and whether “the public” knows this is irrelevant to the issue.
    3) I have not been “lording over” you. I have been exercising my responsibility as owner of this blog to keep it free of the kind of attitude you have displayed in the 10+ comments I’ve had to delete.
    4) If you want to “defend” yourself and promote your own ideas – start your own blog. This blog is not intended for anyone and everyone to push strange beliefs.
    5) YOU are the one who made “this” into a “Zionism issue”. My posts about Israel were all addressing a biblical perspective from a New Testament point of view. I did not turn to political statements from non-Christian sources to support any point.
    6) God does not give you freedom of speech. Read James about the power of the tongue and see where such “freedom” leads.

  34. Hi Ones,

    The thing is, just as many of us have come out of the established main stream “church” and publicly expose many of it’s workings as false, we need to be able to do the same in regards to the natural branches as well.

    I’m not doctrinally immovable and am totally willing to have my mind changed by God when I’m wrong.

    My attitude with regards to this is no different than when I look at the “church” and its heaping up teachers according to their own desires. And make no mistake, the church is no better than Israel when it comes to doing it’s own thing without a care as to what the will of God is.

    The church has indeed violated what Paul said when he warned it to not be haughty towards the natural branches. All I’m trying to do is reconcile what I see going on with Israel the same way I do when exposing false teachers and false prophets within the church.

    The best explanation I can come up with before getting into an extensive study on “the land” is that God saw the Zionists scheming to get Israel back and gave it to them to “choke on” just as He did when he sent the quail to satisfy their craving in the wilderness.

    I believe if God was directly involved in this pre final gathering instead of just allowing them to return to the land in their own strength it is to bring them to the end of themselves so they would never again trust in the arm of the flesh.

    I’m not trying to question the sovereignty of God, but I believe that if men have free will that God doesn’t violate then so do countries that happen to be filled with men.

    Its kind of like the old saying about giving someone enough to hang themselves.

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